this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2023
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Giving an unlimited resource always changes the balance, the most fun i ever had as a rouge was with limited arrows because it forced me to think outside the box of “hide and shoot”
The Shadow of the Demon lord system is different and interesting. You don't track individual arrows, you track quivers (which are quite expensive). A character might have like 3 quivers.
You lose a quiver on a critical fail, otherwise you don't track ammo. This means on average you have 20 arrows per quiver, which works out about right without any of the paperwork.
Interesting but i don’t like it from a role playing angle. I don’t know how to explain how that works, but if i could it would be cool.
Not a player myself, but would this work?
Each quiver holds a single arrow, but they are enchanted with a replenishment function. If the archer utters a specific phrase just after drawing, the arrow replenishes. If they miss the very tight window, the enchantment is broken and has to be re-applied.
The way my gm does it is basically "Drawing and rapidly firing, you reach into your quiver and find it empty". This works because we've never had multiple crit fails in a row.
Your in game god of archery thought your form was so cringe that they zapped a quiver out of existence to save you the embarrassment
Would you like it if it werent counted then ?
Because being forced to do what you do not want or need to do is the problem.
No matter if its counted or not, pick whatever you prefer and is more fun to you. You can even have both at once in the same party.
Depends on what the game is focused on. Combat and survival, absolutely. Story and ,role play maybe but not necessary. However you should play how the DM wants the game to play, period. They are the one putting in the real effort so you show that the proper respect.
As a player and DM : fuck that noise. Bows and arrows are part of the game, and if a DM would tell me that a sword can only hit 19 times and then need to be reworked by a blacksmith, I would either play something else or with someone.
Or you know, pick lizardfolk and make infinite arrows out of bodies.
Or ramsack any merchands.
Or loot every archer I find.
I tried to use limited arrows for the survival aspect. But its not fun or fair. Why limits arrows when cantrips arent ? Because its the rogue ? Because he has sneak attack ? Thats oretty much ALL he has. Take that away or limit it and he cant do shit. Or you force him down a path he doesnt want to take, a la breath of the wild. Everyone loves it when they cant play how they want after all.
But that bit about the DM decides ? Sure he can. He can do whatever he wants. And if he goes too far then the players will fuck off.
But Im here scratching my head and really wondering how more fun is the game if you cannot play it as you want in this specific way. Especially when the person deciding (the dm) isnt even the one directly affected by this. Or is he such a bad DM that he needs to limit an archer's arrows to make it work ?
Yah having a sharpshooter hide behind cover and snipe every battle every turn makes encounters boring sorry. You just think “thats all rouges can do” because with unlimited arrows it kinda forces them into that mold. Just because you are not doing max damage every turn does not mean you are underpowered. Also you need to drain the resources of the party to balance and create the proper tension which is absolutely critical to proper storytelling. That time where the Big bad is slain by the final arrow of the ranger is epic tense moment.
If you play in a specific way and find it boring, THAT is a good reason to switch your playing style.
If I love to snipe from afar and now I cant because arrows are a very rare commodity in this world, this isnt fun. The moment you are forced down a path is where it stops being fun, because its not your own choice.
I have a player. He does that, shoot arrows. And he has fun. I dont need to limit his fun for it to exist.
Counting arrows is like encumbrance in videogames. Its fun for some, and a rapid hassle for most, and you should be able to choose which you wanna play with as a player instead of being forced to use it a specific way.
Options are always great. Their nonexistence is never good. Unless you just so happen upon a table or a videogame that their only option is the one you prefer purely on luck.
Yes people like to snipe from afar because you get to attack without putting yourself in danger, it’s powerful. There are restrictions to balance that. I wouldn’t let a Barb play where they could carry unlimited health potions or a Wiz play with their spells coming back on a short rest. It makes the game unbalanced. Also arrows don’t have to be “rare” just limited somehow between rests. Rouges use items, thats the resource you have to drain from them in order to create a really good tension. Its the difference between mediocre and memorable storytelling.
Arrows are 20 for 1 gold piece. Potions are 50 gold piece for the smallest. Spell scrolls are tens if not hundreds of gold pieces each.
Are you telling me youre gonna make them all the same price then ?
Btw, wizards can get some of their spells on a short rest.
If you need to restrict the amoubt of arrows to make your game balanced, it means you are very good at tailoring encounters to your current party and should restrict everything to make it even easier on you. After all, restrictions is how you have fun.
Its not like players like finding loot after all.
One last thing. Are you also limiting cantrips ? Or is a warlock shooting eldritch blasts with the spell sniper feat destroying your very good preparations ?
I don’t charge money for arrows thats too tedious.
Yes im good a tailoring encounters, im a Great DM. I have had plenty of happy rouges in my groups. If you would trust me if we played im sure I could show you how its fun. However if you demanded to play your way I would kindly ask you to find a different group.
So they just cant buy them ever ?
See, thats why I dont count normal arrows. Its tedious. Its the right word
Think of it like recharging like spells
Ah, so 2 arrows at level 1 then ? Better not fucking miss
Why would it only be two? Why are arguing against things I never said? Im done. Take my advice or don’t. Play how you want idc.
Taking your advice sounds awful.
Swords are not bows. Arrows actually exist. If I go into the woods and shoot all my arrows and never retrieve them, they are gone.
To be honest if a sword is used in 19 fights it needs to be sharpened, at a minimum
What about physical training ? Callous feet ? Diet ? Real life aint a game and for good fucking reasons. If you want to, great, but that iz the question. Not Does this makes sense, but Does this make things more fun for everyone ?
Save we're discussing mechanics for a game that's job is to simulate a real life (albeit not this one) to the best of its abilities, because that's what role-playing is. Living through a character, another person, in a world. The entire structure of the game's supposed to support that conceit. And counting arrows is part of that because your character would have to count and track their arrows. I guess you can break it if the entire table wants to but if that keeps happening I venture to guess the table's not actually playing the right system. I censor myself from harsher critique because I am old and bitter, but I really don't like the concept that "less tedious is more fun" since the tedious stuff is normally the investment that leads to the moments of fun. That last tense shot, the drama of dwindling supply, and the excitement at looting the enemy and finding what you neat. But I also think a lot of the modern convenience items for spell-casters are what helped to destabilize the game and would like to see the "tedium" of them come back.