I am in a senior level undergrad seminar course focusing on the environmental history of imperialism in Africa. We are reviewing each other's introductions. They can't write folks. They just can't write. These people are graduating with me. Sometimes they are even getting the same degree as me and I feel like I am reading a highschooler's essay they wrote in an hour! I genuinely do not believe they even proof read this once. I can forgive the sentences that say nothing and the paragraph that don't say much more than the sentences. But I cannot forgive the abominable grammar and spelling.

God it just fills me with dread. Maybe I just got the worst peer reviews. Maybe the other people in this course have better writing but there are only 14 people and I reviewed 3 of them.

I'm trying so hard to be productively critical but if I were to honestly offer every critique I had they would need a new essay. I would look like such an immense asshole if I put every correction I think NEEDS to be made. Not even including the changes that should be made. I have to keep reminding myself that I can't save them. Nothing I do here is going to teach them effective writing. I am consoling myself with the idea that they wrote this in an hour or two before the deadline with 0 research having been done.

I just, idk comrades. It's bleak. I think I'm gonna grab a beer for this next one.

Edit: the beer is helping

edit edit: decades of passive voice usage has had severe consequences. I am begging my fellows students to use an active voice, absolutely begging.

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[–] 17 points 1 week ago* (19 children)

I can forgive the sentences that say nothing and the paragraph that don't say much more than the sentences. But the I cannot forgive the abominable grammar and spelling.

Tbh I think the sentences that say nothing are more unforgivable than people not being very proficient at spelling, especially about such an interesting and important topic. Like we all make grammatical and spelling mistakes. And as someone else pointed out, at least you know that the students didn't just have a LLM write it for them.

I'm trying so hard to be productively critical but if I were to honestly offer every critique I had they would need a new essay.

I mean don't be mean, but do be critical... because maybe they do need a new essay.

Nothing I do here is going to teach them effective writing.

It might be more impactful if the critiques come from a fellow student than an authority figure like a professor or teaching assistant.

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  • [–] 14 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    Tbh I think the sentences that say nothing are more unforgivable than people not being very proficient at spelling, especially about such an interesting and important topic. Like we all make grammatical and spelling mistakes. And as someone else pointed out, at least you know that the students didn't just have a LLM write it for them.

    There's a type of person you run into in college where you realize that they think writing is fundamentally a different thing from communicating. Perfectly normal people who could have a normal conversation but think that writing is some sort of alchemy where you combine words and get a grade at the end based on how closely you performed the rituals.

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  • [–] 16 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    There's a type of person you run into in college where you realize that they think writing is fundamentally a different thing from communicating.

    On the premise that these people do use text messaging a lot I'd argue this is more an understanding of an essay is some bullshit I have to do for reasons not entirely clear to get a degree and to be fair they're not entirely wrong.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    Yeah learning as a series of arbitrary hurdles and its consequences. It's pretty bleak that the system is failing so comprehensively that people are internalizing a baseline belief that learning is box checking.

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  • [–] 11 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    There's a type of person you run into in college where you realize that they think writing is fundamentally a different thing from communicating.

    Holy shit I never thought about it like that. Like I'm autistic; writing has always been my lifeline for reliable communication. So it honestly never occurred to me that people might think of writing as something other than communicating.

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  • [–] [S] 8 points 1 week ago

    you and me both comrade... I find verbal communication to be such a struggle but writing my thoughts out is so effective. My partner and I used to deal with our disagreements primarily over text because I was just so significantly better at communicating my feelings through text.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    Tbh I think the sentences that say nothing are more unforgivable than people not being very proficient at spelling, especially about such an interesting and important topic. Like we all make grammatical and spelling mistakes. And as someone else pointed out, at least you know that the students didn't just have a LLM write it for them.

    My experience has been that missing a minimum word count is treated worse than adding some filler. I guess it makes sense to require a word count from people learning to write but at some point this needs to be unlearned again when people write more than they have to say.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago* (4 children)

    Yes, this is a major contributor. I teach a scientific writing class, and we spend the first several weeks work shopping a single piece of theirs from 750 words down to (eventually) 250 words. They have to unlearn the habit of saying everything in the longest, fluffiest, emptiest way possible. They developed that habit because most of their English assignments have heavily penalized them for only having 8 pages of stuff to say for a 10 page assignment. It's second nature by this point, and it makes for very bad writing. They're shocked to have to deal with maximum word counts instead of minimum, as well as by how much better (and shorter) their writing gets when you remove all the "of course, under some circumstances, it may well be true that..." style constructions.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (2 children)

    I guess my college might have been particularly bad in that regard. We had some presentation about what was expected and a single assignment to submit something bachelor thesis shaped in the semester before graduation.

    We were also told to write English because it makes gendering easier than in German which we were required to get right but were never taught.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    We were also told to write English because it makes gendering easier than in German which we were required to get right but were never taught.

    English also has way fewer cases, so points for that

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

    Gender neutral language is so much easier in English. Just a few pronouns here an there and avoiding a couple gendered terms. In German every noun is gendered and you need to take extra care when using nouns that refer to people/roles (which are most of the time grammatically male by default) when you want to write neutral. SerialExperimentsGay wrote a good explanation once.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 week ago

    When I started my history degree I was overzealous and took an upper level course my first semester. For our first writing assignment we had to summarize a dense historical text in no more than 2000 words and it nearly killed me. It was my first time having to make my writing as efficient as possible and I wasn't ready for that.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    I am more upset by the awful grammar, sentence structure, and spelling primarily because it is so egregious as to indicate a complete lack of proofreading. They cannot have missed all of these if they read through their essay even a single time. I am more forgiving of the inability to communicate because I see that as more of a systemic failure.

    I'm honestly doing my best here, I would just have to write an entire new essay just to critique their essay for it to be comprehensive at that would definitely be excessive. I am not trying to injure their ego too much. I have been trying to focus on correcting their use of the passive voice as much as possible and encouraging them to be more specific in certain instances. They have a tendency to be very vague, they sort of gesture towards a concept rather than explaining the purpose of that concept within their essay and I have been doing my best to offer alternative phrases that would better identify that purpose. They similarly struggle with moralizations rather than material analysis which isn't at all uncommon but I really try to offer alternatives where I can. A notable instance involved a reference to Henry Morton Stanley being criticized as a "villain" but the criticism is far more specific than that. It's true than many people have moralized him as a villian but the position of his critics is far better represented as "vehicle of imperial exploitation". To engage in that moralism is lazy and simplifies both the complex individual that was Stanley but also those who critique him. The essay is full of shit like this and if I was to try and correct all of it I would look like a dick who was tearing their paper apart. I also offer sentence restructuring here and there but again, there is just so much.

    I want to be more critical but the unfortunate part is that I know these students and the review is not anonymous.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (4 children)

    Question: is this peer review being used to grade these essays? Like if you give them a brutal review, do the people you're reviewing get trash grades?

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 1 week ago (3 children)
  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    thankfully not

    Excellent. If I was in your shoes, I would, constructively, eviscerate the essays you've been given. Rip it to shreds. Because if it's not you ripping it to shreds, it's a professor or someone more important in a context where it damages more than your colleagues' egos. At least, that's what I want when I ask people to review my work. I always want my work ruthlessly torn apart and made better.

    I am more forgiving of the inability to communicate because I see that as more of a systemic failure.

    I mean I would argue that being incompetent at proofreading, or not having been sufficiently motivated to proofread their work is also due to a systemic failure of the education system. Frankly, in my view, it is a corollary of the overall systemic discouragement of critical thinking in elementary school.

    I have been trying to focus on correcting their use of the passive voice as much as possible and encouraging them to be more specific in certain instances.

    Put a blanket comment, i.e. you don't have to individually list every single instance of it.

    I am not trying to injure their ego too much.

    Do you owe them an uninjured ego? If they can't take critique, that's on them, not you.

    I know these students and the review is not anonymous.

    So don't be mean, be critical. If they're worth keeping around, they'll appreciate your effort. And again, if they get upsetti spaghetti at you for doing the thing you were explicitly asked to do... that's on them.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago* (1 child)

    So don't be mean, be critical. If they're worth keeping around, they'll appreciate your effort. And again, if they get upsetti spaghetti at you for doing the thing you were explicitly asked to do... that's on them.

    There's a point at which pointing out more mistakes starts feeling mean regardless of accuracy, and if we're trusting the op these essays are probably past it. Suggesting they brush that aside as "that's on them, not you" is overly dismissive of their concern because this thread would just be venting rather than sincerely asking for advice if that solution were as easy for them as it is for you.

    I'd be uncomfortable spending time around someone I think I may have upset regardless of whether they'd be justified in that, so that's a situation I would be trying to avoid too. I used to see this kind of thing as a weakness in myself, but as I've aged I think that kind of sensitivity is the reason I've been able to make strong connections. Sometimes you'll stumble on a person who reads that kind of caution as a compassion, and those have very much been the people I've needed in my life. Those connections are very rare and you're not running into them every day, but if you kill that part of yourself they'll never find you.

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  • Suggesting they brush that aside as "that's on them, not you" is overly dismissive of their concern because this thread would just be venting rather than sincerely asking for advice if that solution were as easy for them as it is for you.

    Yeah I probably overstated my perspective. Like I did not mean to completely dismiss the need to not be excessively critical, but my thinking is that... they're in an academic context where they're being explicitly asked to be critical. There's always a balance to be struck, but in this context I thought it would be appropriate to err on the side of more critical.

    But also I... don't think the solution is easy for me? Like I am constantly finding myself navigating the fine line between criticalness and contentiousness. And I'm really really bad at reading social cues so I occasionally end up on the wrong side of the line.

    And really, I did not mean the part you quoted as general life advice. I really meant it for this specific situation, where they're being explicitly asked to leave critical feedback in an academic context.

    I'd be uncomfortable spending time around someone I think I may have upset regardless of whether they'd be justified in that, so that's a situation I would be trying to avoid too.

    Me too tbh. Like there was someone I really pissed off a few weeks back because I was being critical in the wrong context and they thought I was trying to be disrespectful. I apologized profusely and we hashed it out, but I still feel fucking terrible over it 😖. Thank you for the critique.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago*

    Tbh I think the sentences that say nothing are more unforgivable than people not being very proficient at spelling, especially about such an interesting and important topic. Like we all make grammatical and spelling mistakes. And as someone else pointed out, at least you know that the students didn't just have a LLM write it for them.

    Yeah, agree. I can overlook formal deficiencies if the person making them at least cares enough to make a coherent point, and is able to present it clearly. A polished paper with bad argumentation is much harder to read for me than the other way around.

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