Where's the lie ? (thelemmy.club)
submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by to c/catholicism@lemmy.ml
 

https://x.com/nxt888/status/2109355523418317215

My answer is that christians weren't in control of the government, otherwise it wouldn't have happened.
However, the immediate counter-argument will point out that power corrupts, even the Church was at some time in its 20 centuries-long history corrupted by the powerful/wealthy, who couldn't care less about meekness, poverty, ...
Now they don't even have a territory left, nor schools or any kind of power. Christian families aren't even allowed to teach their children outside government schools in France. State workers aren't allowed to wear visible religious signs. Etc...

No need to develop, it's just the same usual opposition between a "liberation theology" and a "prosperity gospel", between a focus on the obviousness/message/urgency/future and a focus on the faith/identity/tradition/past.
The far-right clearly does not care about helping those outside our tribe/group, such as ethnic/religious minorities, the poor, foreigners, homeless, marginalized/vulnerable, ... If we had been polytheists for the last thousands of years, then they wouldn't be the kind of people to convert to christianism. They'd laugh at the past importance of a "gentle man", only idealists&losers aren't machiavelians they say, what's one more lie if Hell doesn't exist.
They're in my group though, like non-humans, i still believe as i did back then that it's a matter of finding the right words, of listening to their answers, ...
One day they will be forced to confront better alternatives to the present, the kind in which the whole benefits instead of them, and i will see them unable to spin the arguments in their favor. I live for that day, and i will help in making it happen, one day.

Anyway, nothing new, just one more useless post telling things that everyone agrees with, and without receiving a counter-argument since i'm posting in an echo chamber. It's pointless but whatever

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[–] 4 points 9 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (11 children)

Your reply doesn't really make sense.

Abrahamic faiths are death cults. That's an independent and true statement.

Technology has increased capacity to murder at scale--that's independent of an empire's 'religiosity'. Your post suggests that if the Western empire was more devote to a religion it would be less murderous. I don't think that makes any sense at all, especially when the most angry and confused in Western politics come directly from the Churches.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 hours ago (9 children)

    No, their point isn't that religion makes you less murderous, but that whether you're religious or not plays less into how much murder you commit, compared to factors grounded in material reality, such as the mode of production, the competition for resources, geopolitics, etc.

    The Japanese fascists didn't go around enslaving, genociding and so on because of religion, and they were certainly not Abrahamic. And you also had slavery in Europe way before Christians showed up, but you'd be a fool if you blamed Roman and Greek slavery on their polytheism.

    Religion is an important factor when analyzing a society, for sure, but it's not the main driver of history, it never was, it never will be, and there's a good chance it will simply wither away under socialism, assuming the government isn't wildly reactionary against religious people and so on.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago) (8 children)

    None of this makes sense. There's one message that states abrahmic religions are death cults. That's true. The reply isn't even a tangent, but responds to something that isn't even in the message.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 hours ago* (7 children)

    No the entire blaming Abrahamic religions for extravagant capitalism is just a cop-out.

    You can also blame Hindu nationalism in India, etc. Even in fully atheistic societies, greed still persists.

    The Neoliberal French loved blaming religion and "educating the barbarians".

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 4 hours ago* (last edited 3 hours ago) (4 children)

    Yeah, atheism didn't reduce the number of wars, and if we all had interracial marriages to the point of having the same skin color, then wars would still exist.

    I'm ready to admit i'm wrong and that christianism is a death cult, but where's @dropdrip's argument ?
    To me, the Gospels are on the contrary a life cult, and my sources could be numerous, if it counts to quote them :
    John 10:10 : « I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. »(, i believe that they meant life in at least one other meaning than life after death, which is that we didn't really lived until being christians, since our lives were devoid of meaning, we were always in search for more, it's linked with whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again, i could/should develop)
    There are dozens, but Mark 12:27 « He is not the God of the dead, but of the living »
    I don't think there's a point in developing without understanding what they meant by "death cults"

    (What i meant by « christians weren’t in control of the government » is that clergy-wo.men weren't the queens/kings, and could only hope to have their advices accepted(, with the exception of papal states))

    And yeah, as you said before about Barack Obama : in the single year of 2016, he dropped nearly 30,000 bombs(, « This estimate is undoubtedly low »,) on Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia, and Pakistan

    B.t.w., he never received any congressional authorization(, relying on the Authorization for Use of Military Force of 2001 and 2002) :

    Of these 7 countries, it's worth repeating that Lybia was the most prosperous country in Africa, he made it a failed state with slave markets.
    But there are also suspicions that he participated in the coups in Egypt(, he at least openly supported al-Sissi), Honduras(, at least we know that he recognised the post-coup elections), and perhaps even Thailand according to some people(, the usual suspicion when a leftist/populist government is overthrown by an authoritarian conservative/royalist one). As usual, covert actions are kept secret, but it's not as if anything would change if a proof emerged.

    As for Joe Biden the pacifist, beyond being called "Genocide Joe" and vetoing UN resolutions calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, he has my eternal thanks for Julian Assange.
    However, he's an american president, so he ordered airstrikes in Syria a month after taking office, because we(sterners) have the duty of killing the bad guys, and who cares if these bad guys pretend to be good guys, what matters is to prevent them from speaking(, that's terrorism apologia). You cannot solve a problem if you cannot talk about it.
    He also conducted airstrikes in Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, and Afghanistan, because the empire does what empires do. It would only be scandalous if China did it, or Cuba, or Venezuela, or ...
    We're not talking about one month, but from 2021 to 2024, his whole presidency.
    Like Barack Obama, he didn't obtain congressional approval, relying like him on the Authorization for Use of Military Force of 2001 and 2002
    It goes without saying that he increased sanctions against Russia, Iran, China, Venezuela, etc.

    There, i said it for the n-th time : the US is the n°1 terrorist state on Earth. But what's the point ? Even if all the journalists of the world knew that, why would they care ?
    I would add that it's been many years since i've learned, progressively, about our biggest lie justifying every single one of our crimes, that these countries are authoritarian, and we ought to save their brainwashed population.
    Afterwards, it's already been a few years since i've realized that even if that was true, and even if these countries were threatening us, then our argument would not hold, because we could be united in diversity, ensuring the security of everyone(, e.g. through a world army against overt actions and a world tribunal against covert ones, to simplify). And whether my solutions are right or not doesn't matter, since i would only ask these "leaders" to seek the mechanisms ensuring 'lasting peace'/'security for all'. I am forced to realize that we(sterners) do not care about even pretending to seek such mechanisms.
    We(sterners) could invade any country, and are getting lazier and lazier with our justifications, because there's no need, we'll just do as we want, but yeah, sure, let me write words on the internet, that will teach them(, and it's not as if i'd be aware of their counter-arguments).
    The cause of Iran and other anti-zionists is legitimate : we(sterners) are responsible for the presence of a state in their(/'one of their two') heart.s, if it's about giving a state to Israel then we should give it on our lands instead of forcing non-westerners to bear the cost ; and if it's about achieving what the Crusades failed to do, then we should give them something that they will all agree is worth exchanging for the Holy Lands(, or other solutions). You know, like civilized persons.

    Anyway, thank you if you read all that, and for everything you've been doing for Lemmy these last years.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 hours ago* (3 children)

    Thanks. There's plenty of good and bad. The Bible contains plenty of good messages, Engels primary inspiration was Christianity.

    It feels like many Liberals just love blaming religions which they don't adhere to so they don't have to reflect on the(ir own) political system causing most of them.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 hours ago* (2 children)

    You don't have to adhere to a belief system to understand it. I was raised on the bible. If my parents hadn't violently brainwashed me, I never would have bought into it.

    Yahweh is a death god who condones rape, slavery, and genocide. His version of "love" is "obey or die". Belief in a happy afterlife devalues our real earthly lives and incentivizes death.

    It's present all throughout the old testament, new testament, and the quran.

    The abrahamic faiths are death cults.

    the Gospels are on the contrary a life cult, and my sources could be numerous, if it counts to quote them

    Oops, you left out all the abusive parts, where Jesus talks about throwing people into an eternal punishment if you don't submit. How "loving".

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 2 hours ago* (last edited 1 hour ago)


    (source)

    The new testament is a succession of parables, meant to be thought upon, and Hell is the kind of mysteries from a few sentences(, taken literally,) that shouldn't be enough to hide from you what's repeated more clearly, you can consider that those who refuse to be/do good will make Earth a Hell anyway, that this is not how you make the kingdom of God comes onto Earth. That we should seek the water of life and not the fire. (Ironic(?) that atheists believing instead in a simulation, will then still believe in an afterlife)
    If Hell exists, then i know i already have my place there, but i don't need to believe in it, because in any case we should all try to lower the weight of our sins, confessions were a remarkable idea/tradition.

    It could end up being a long discussion, but in short i don't think i need to convince you that religions are virtuous, i just hope that you'll be more virtuous than these religious people, you could prove to them what "being as virtuous as humanely possible" means.
    Religions aren't necessary for this goal, they're "just" useful, so may God's kingdom/city come.

    (Also, if you define God as something that exists, then God exists. E.g., the Greatest exists, the '~Beginning'/Present/~End, and/or Idea(l)s included in the Greatest(, is the Greatest the Maximum/Perfection or the All ?)
    An external entity influencing our reality wouldn't necessarily be (as great as )God, so it seems like a weaker definition. Perhaps our subconscious can't produce worthy ideas without aiming for the living God in/'all around' us ; if the divine created, then what about H..er.is creation, is it '(partly? )divine'/'a part of God', or not(, because no imperfections could be in H..er.is part) ? Just to say that theologians debated rationally about real things.
    The Bible says that God is what Is.
    The thing is that we{humans} do not know much about the nature of our reality, let's start by this first step before hoping to conceive God at the top of the mountain, but the Greatest is)

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