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Comrads, we must provide critical support, not critical thinking! (thelemmy.club)
submitted 5 days ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] -4 points 5 days ago (6 children)

You do know NATO is a defensive alliance, right? The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.

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  • [–] 9 points 4 days ago (1 child)

    are you OK? You do know that nato funded and sent mercenaries to conduct the coup of Ukraine right?

    They tried the same thing with Afghanistan but the people there werent having anyof that.

    ALSO nato has been involved in more aggressive military operations than defensive ones since its conception.

    Im not saying the Russians are heroes or anything Im just givknf you the facts lol

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  • [–] -5 points 4 days ago

    I will just repeat what I wrote:

    It has been the USA (& allies) invading, nobody denies that. For example the 2001 Afghanstan invasion was started by the USA, the UK, Australia and taleban, and most other countries got involved after the United Nations gave the permission to ISAF - other here including most other NATO countries, and at least 24 non-nato countries. At that point it was not an NATO invasion, it was UN trying to help clean up the mess that was Afghanstan civil war, which started in 1978 already. Did that succeed? No. Was it the entirety of NATO just randomly invading Afghanistan? Also no. In Iraq in 2003 USA plus the coalition of willing, was not the entitity of NATO either. The genocide of Palestine has been going on practically from the beginning of Israel, the latest whole huge mess has not been a NATO operation either.

    The usual claims, that every time any NATO countries get involved with some unlawful USA invasions, is just part of Russian propaganda tactics, trying to pretend its bordering countries joining NATO, because of the risk of Russian invasion, is somehow NATO trying to attack Russia. Claiming all these wars are just "NATO invasions" is downplaying the complexity of these situations, in attempt of trying to justificate Russian invasions. The whole reason countries like the Baltics - and now Sweden and Finland - have joined NATO, is because Russia invades its neighbors the moment it wants, like it has done in Ukraine.

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  • [–] 4 points 4 days ago (2 children)

    You do know NATO is a defensive alliance, right?

    So defensive that they can't stop invading everywhere?
    The invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan were such defensive actions, and so is the genocide of Palestine, according to you.

    The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.

    Name a single NATO state that did not participate in either of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. Include Ukraine as a "NATO state".

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  • [+] -6 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 child)

    It has been the USA (& allies) invading, nobody denies that. For example the 2001 Afghanstan invasion was started by the USA, the UK, Australia and taleban, and most other countries got involved after the United Nations gave the permission to ISAF - other here including most other NATO countries, and at least 24 non-nato countries. At that point it was not an NATO invasion, it was UN trying to help clean up the mess that was Afghanstan civil war, which started in 1978 already. Did that succeed? No. Was it the entirety of NATO just randomly invading Afghanistan? Also no. In Iraq in 2003 USA plus the coalition of willing, was not the entitity of NATO either. The genocide of Palestine has been going on practically from the beginning of Israel, the latest whole huge mess has not been a NATO operation either.

    The usual claims, that every time any NATO countries get involved with some unlawful USA invasions, is just part of Russian propaganda tactics, trying to pretend its bordering countries joining NATO, because of the risk of Russian invasion, is somehow NATO trying to attack Russia. Claiming all these wars are just "NATO invasions" is downplaying the complexity of these situations, in attempt of trying to justificate Russian invasions. The whole reason countries like the Baltics - and now Sweden and Finland - have joined NATO, is because Russia invades its neighbors the moment it wants, like it has done in Ukraine.

    //Edit
    (I did not realize it while writing this comment, but the account I answered seems to be just an ordinary Russian propagandist. They are doing the classic tactics, so I will just block and move on, but for any real person reading this, how to easily recognize them is:

    • Blaming "the West" for everything, and defending what Russia does
    • Bringing up the history of colonization in discussions, and using it to justify what Russia does
    • Claiming everything the USA does is NATO doing it
    • Making simplified claims about complicated things, like anything considering the middle-East
    • Using the genocide of palestinians to justify what Russia does
    • Claiming Ukraine has nazis, is controlled by NATO etc.
    • Using any claims to justify Russia invading its neighbors
    • Claiming NATO or European countries want to invade Russia
    • Defending the invasion of Ukraine
    • Lack of knowledge, or pretended lack of knowledge, of the situation, history and relationship with Russia, of the Russia's border countries, like Ukraine, Baltics and Finland
    • Writing longer and longer answers, trying to make you exhausted by misunderstanding arguments you make, and forcing you to individually correct their claims

    Same logic applies to Chinese propagandists too, except they will also defend China genociding their minorities and use Chinese state sponsored sources. The best reaction is to point this behavior out, and move on. Taking part in further discussion just allows them to spout the propaganda more, and give visibility to it.)

    //Edit2
    (Oh, and ordinary russians are not the same, as Russia's leadership. The problem is russian imperialism - as in the belief in the great Russian empire, that has the right to invade its neighbours or do anything - that cannot be eradicated by any other means, than Russia collapsing from the inside, and russians giving up on it. Putin does not care about russians, to Kreml they are just resources to throw into the meat grinder.)

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  • [–] 3 points 4 days ago

    Going to note that you failed to point to any NATO states that did not invade Iraq and Afghanistan.
    We can already safely conclude that NATO is not a defensive alliance.

    It has been the USA (& allies) invading, nobody denies that.

    You did, and let me quote you again:

    The USA doing invading with some allies is not the same as NATO doing it.

    In case you want to pretend otherwise, NATO is the US and its allies/vassals.

    For example the 2001 Afghanstan invasion was started by the USA, the UK, Australia and taleban

    The Taliban invaded Afghanistan in 2001? This has to be a joke.

    At that point it was not an NATO invasion

    Yeah, it was. It was organised by the core of NATO, and it was perpetrated by NATO states and their puppets.

    If you disagree, then tell us which states participated in it that were not de facto NATO states.

    it was UN trying to help clean up the mess that was Afghanstan civil war

    The UN is an organisation that is controlled by NATO. You are arguing that NATO giving itself green light to invade Afghanistan somehow proves that NATO did not invade Afghanistan.

    Was it the entirety of NATO just randomly invading Afghanistan?

    Nobody said that it was "random". It was a deliberate move to resubjugate Afghanistan.
    Why are you even trying to imply that somebody claimed that it was "random"?

    Also no. In Iraq in 2003 USA plus the coalition of willing, was not the entitity of NATO either.

    Ok. Which ones of those states were not de facto NATO states?

    The genocide of Palestine has been going on practically from the beginning of Israel

    Correct. A genocidal settler-colonial project planned by the NATO states and their zionist groups since before the formation of NATO.

    the latest whole huge mess has not been a NATO operation either.

    It's the same polities that were behind things like the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

    The usual claims, that every time any NATO countries get involved with some unlawful USA invasions, is just part of Russian propaganda tactics,

    Haha. Seems like reality is just part of the "Russian propaganda" that lives in your head rent-free. Apparently, when something contradicts the notion of righteousness of the invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan, it's just "Russian propaganda", and for some reason can be assumed to be false or ignorable.
    Notably, you never actually question actual NATO propaganda that is verifiably a thing.

    trying to pretend its bordering countries joining NATO, because of the risk of Russian invasion

    And yet, it's NATO that is the most prolific invader in the world and pushed for war with Russia.
    Also notably, none of Russia's neighbours had issues with being invaded (no, Georgia attacking the peacekeepers and South Ossetians is not an act of Russian aggression), including the pre-coup Ukraine.

    If you think that the states that join the gang of invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan to plunder Africa and Asia is fine because of a hypothetical risk of invasion by Russia (contrary to the history of its actions) and, well, participating in those invasions and genocides is fine, but Russia defending itself against attacks by the entity that has always been invading and doing genocides throughout its existence and which has broken promises made to Russia about not expanding towards it is somehow bad, then what you want is for the rest of the world to just roll over and get enslaved by you.

    is somehow NATO trying to attack Russia.

    Attempting to become a part of the most prolific invader in the world that has a history of, well, doing invasions and genocides, as well as constantly breaking promises is, in fact, an act of aggression.

    Going to also remind you that NATO has carried out war crimes against Russia, and has been targeting civilians and nuclear power plants. That is what you support, in addition to all of the other "defensive" NATO actions like invading Iraq.

    Claiming all these wars are just “NATO invasions”

    Cool. Which NATO states did not participate in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan?

    in attempt of trying to justificate Russian invasions.

    Ok. What are these "Russian invasions", plural?

    The whole reason countries like the Baltics - and now Sweden and Finland - have joined NATO

    You mean the states that worship WW2 nazis and have participated in invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan (as well as other ones), and have been beneficiaries of colonial subjugation of the Global South? Those states?

    is because Russia invades its neighbors the moment it wants, like it has done in Ukraine.

    And when else did Russia invade its neighbours "the moment it wanted"? I can name a lot of cases when NATO invaded whenever it wanted.
    Also, it is really silly how you just sweep under the rug why Russia "wanted" to attack Ukraine in the first place.

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