Like on principle, I know that the writer’s and actor’s guild and union shit is all good. I don’t think all the success from a movie or show should go 100% to the company, but it still feels weird saying that a Hollywood actor is working class.

What do y’all think? Am I just being a dumbass?

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[–] 10 points 1 week ago (3 children)

I was going to write a comment but you pretty much said what I would have.

I think it's also worth drawing a distinction between the terms "Working Class" and "Proletarian".

The Proletariat - the Revolutionary Class - in its purest form means to "own nothing" - a renter who walks to work or takes public transportation, doesn't have a college degree, doesn't manage others at work but is himself managed.

In modern America few people fit this platonic ideal of proletarianism, but artists - including actors - are generally not considered to be proletarian, nor would other celebrities or athletes.

This isn't to denigrate artists or actors or anyone else, just to get language straight in order to reconcile the cognitive dissonance of these sometimes very-wealthy people being "lumped in" with those that we more traditionally think of as "working class".

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    doesn't have a college degree,

    This is not a real requirement. Having training doesn't make you not proletarian.

    The idea that artists, including actors, are generally not proletarian is totally ridiculous. Their work is labor and they are paid for their labor, though usually they are very underpaid and need some other job or two to stay afloat.

    Taking the richest exemplars of a group as the general example in a group so wildly stratified and bottom-heavy is indefensible.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago*

    I think you're confusing the terms "Working Class" and "Proletarian" in basically the same way that I was pointing out in my post. And I want to make it clear, again, that I am not making the assertion that non-proletarian workers are lesser (or greater) in any way than Proletarians, just that they have a different experience of Capitalism that informs their political consciousness - which is why these terms exist to begin with.

    The original distinction, of course, being the distinction between Proletarians, Peasants, and Slaves - all of whom are working class, but have their own relations to the means of production.

    An Engineer is (typically) working-class, but is not a proletarian. Nor is an artist. This is why, even in their various insignia, Socialist states such as the GDR and DPRK have symbols for the Proletariat and Peasantry, yes, but also have separate symbols for Engineers and Artists.

    Both groups - really, all groups - can become partially or even wholly Proletarianized. But such a state is not necessarily the default. Someone taking commissions to draw furry pornography is petty-bourgoise. Lenin himself excludes the Democrat-Bureaucrats from Proletarianism as a matter of course, despite most performing work for wages.

    Many actors are partially Proletarianized, but fame should be considered a form of ephemeral Capital owned by the actor (in much the same way as a university degree) which alienates the celebrity from the general Proletarian class.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    So if a person owns a car but doesn't use it for any small-business purposes, do you think that still makes that person bourgeois? I also think that in a settler-colony, skin color matters a lot. There are homeless white people out there who are not revolutionary, let's just say (for various reasons). But yeah, not owning a car, not owning a house, not having any kind of leadership role at work, that definitely makes a person more open to revolutionary thinking. I knew a guy just like this at my last job—a "skilled" blue collar technician who seemingly had nothing but a work van. I guess he had some land in the woods (bourgeois) and he told me he was supposedly building a house there (he's white, his dad's a carpenter who owns his own business), but he also said that he had slept in his work van on cold winter nights with the engine on. He was also super racist. One of the first things he ever said to me was "nobody wants to work anymore." And this was two years ago, long after that phrase had gotten pretty stale.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    I think there is - not a scale, but a sort of spectrum - of class relations that every individual falls somewhere on. And there are pure expressions of those class relations, but also imperfect ones, and it's senseless to draw hard lines within the spectrum when the dialectical position is accepting the spectrum exists as it does (this is a bit of a non-sequitor, but I believe a very similar thing could be said of other dialectic contradictions, such as gender).

    I often think of my father - I was not born into a wealthy family nor did I live a wealthy life growing up. My dad was self-employed as an auto-mechanic and was what I would call a "failed businessman". We lived in a modest (maybe around 300-400 sqft plus a basement and attic?) single-family home in a Midwestern city suburb. He was a co-founder of a natural gas automobile conversion company. He lost tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars on that and just bad stock market investments. Our family home (and only property) has a leaky roof, rusty pipes and constantly backs up with sewage, and we can't afford to get any of it fixed because the family is thousands of dollars in debt and behind on property taxes.

    I say this just to say that he is not wealthy, but he is also not Working Class nor Proletarian. He is Petty-Bourgeois, in some ways maybe even Big-Bourgeois. This isn't reflected in our standard of living (and certainly won't be reflected in my inheritance when he kicks the bucket, which will be nothing or close to it), but it does inform his politics. He's not openly racist or homophobic or a conspiracy theorist or anything like that, he's not a QANON or MAGA guy, but he still won't shut the fuck up about Ross Perot, he likes all the Libertarian grifters, he wants fewer regulations and more subsidies and simpler taxes for business owners. He's afraid of "thugs" and their music, their culture, their neighborhoods; he simultaneously hates cops when they inconvenience him but is almost gleeful when they police others.

    It's not about virtue or oppression but about studying how a person's relationship to Capital informs their politics.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 week ago*

    I think it's also worth drawing a distinction between the terms "Working Class" and "Proletarian".

    I disagree that these are distinct terms in a Marxian context. This amounts to smuggling in the liberal concept of “working class” that has no basis in class analysis, where working class means simply middle income.

    The fact that many workers in the US have material interest in the stock market and in US imperialism — this does not necessitate any refinement of our concept of working class, but instead to identify the social-chauvinist, labor-aristocratic, and petite-bourgeois tendencies within the US proletariat as contrasted against the global proletariat.

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