▲ 651 ▼ It only counts when I say it does (thelemmy.club) submitted 6 days ago by Zombiepirate@lemmy.world to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world 192 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) Why? Is countries having their souvereignty and agency not enough? Least of all eastern Europe might not hate Russia as much as they do now. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) having their souvereignty and agency not enough? Countries with souvereignity usually have a capitalistic elite. For the elite that's enough, but for the people? Without the USSR the US would have been able to treat the countries much earlier like they treat South America. I doubt that people would have been happy with it. But they would hate Russia much less. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) Well with the USSR, countries were occupied, countless people murdered and exiled, families destroyed, and forcefully replaced with russians who would influence the future of their states forever. What the USSR did with russification is just like what the israelies are doing in the west bank with their "settlers". The USSR was an imperialist colonizer and was fucking awful; not some heroic response to the west. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) with russians who would influence the future Sent there by a Georgian. Unless people want to end Communism, what does it matter if there are resettled people? The party had to create work for everybody. The EU has free movement. It will end the same way, only that there will be an elite that owns everything but doesn't share. is just like what the israelies are doing in the west bank with their “settlers”. I have read about resettlements gone wrong but has the USSR resettled people without offering new land? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) It "had to create work for everybody"? By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? That sounds normal to you? Without offering new land? russia straight up stole the land from these people and gave them to russians in the name of their fake communism which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? Was it entire people or just the elite? which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. Do you have numbers? I have seen numbers that like before the war, Russia exported oil for cheap. The fewer resources compared to today were caused by the smaller economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 child) Here's just Estonia: SOVIET REPRESSION AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN ESTONIA Before Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.13 million Ethnic Estonians: ~1.0 million (~88%) Ethnic Russians: ~90,000 (~8%) Soviet repression: People deported from Estonia: ~50,000 June 1941 mass deportation: ~10,000 March 1949 mass deportation: ~20,000–21,000 Men forcibly mobilized and transported into the USSR in 1941: ~32,000–34,000 People murdered, imprisoned, or deported by the Soviet regime: more than 75,000 Identified victims who were killed or died in imprisonment/forced resettlement and never returned: more than 22,000 By 1989, near the end of Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.57 million Ethnic Estonians: ~963,000 (61.5%) Ethnic Russians: ~475,000 (~30%) Ukrainians: ~48,000 Belarusians: ~28,000 Demographic change: Ethnic Russian population increased from ~90,000 to ~475,000 Net increase in ethnic Russian population: ~385,000 Estonian share of the population fell from ~88% to 61.5% Despite nearly 50 years passing, there were slightly fewer ethnic Estonians living in Estonia in 1989 than before Soviet occupation. This isn't some Russo phobia or anti communism thing. What they have done is fucking awful and anyone who spews some bullshit about NATO expanding and threatening russia can go fuck themselves. Russia represents an existential threat to its neighbors and it has no one to blame for that sentiment besides itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) I asked for numbers about: which just meant shipping resources to moscow What your numbers don't show is the class war. The people who were deported, were they part of the elite or regular citizens? It also seems like the migrants are not only Russians: mobilized mostly among Russians, as well as other parts of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia What I don't understand is the logic of the resettlement. Most migrants are in one county close to Russia. That's only a bit more helpful to influence the population than having them live across the border in Russia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) having their souvereignty and agency not enough? Countries with souvereignity usually have a capitalistic elite. For the elite that's enough, but for the people? Without the USSR the US would have been able to treat the countries much earlier like they treat South America. I doubt that people would have been happy with it. But they would hate Russia much less. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) Well with the USSR, countries were occupied, countless people murdered and exiled, families destroyed, and forcefully replaced with russians who would influence the future of their states forever. What the USSR did with russification is just like what the israelies are doing in the west bank with their "settlers". The USSR was an imperialist colonizer and was fucking awful; not some heroic response to the west. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) with russians who would influence the future Sent there by a Georgian. Unless people want to end Communism, what does it matter if there are resettled people? The party had to create work for everybody. The EU has free movement. It will end the same way, only that there will be an elite that owns everything but doesn't share. is just like what the israelies are doing in the west bank with their “settlers”. I have read about resettlements gone wrong but has the USSR resettled people without offering new land? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) It "had to create work for everybody"? By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? That sounds normal to you? Without offering new land? russia straight up stole the land from these people and gave them to russians in the name of their fake communism which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? Was it entire people or just the elite? which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. Do you have numbers? I have seen numbers that like before the war, Russia exported oil for cheap. The fewer resources compared to today were caused by the smaller economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 child) Here's just Estonia: SOVIET REPRESSION AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN ESTONIA Before Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.13 million Ethnic Estonians: ~1.0 million (~88%) Ethnic Russians: ~90,000 (~8%) Soviet repression: People deported from Estonia: ~50,000 June 1941 mass deportation: ~10,000 March 1949 mass deportation: ~20,000–21,000 Men forcibly mobilized and transported into the USSR in 1941: ~32,000–34,000 People murdered, imprisoned, or deported by the Soviet regime: more than 75,000 Identified victims who were killed or died in imprisonment/forced resettlement and never returned: more than 22,000 By 1989, near the end of Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.57 million Ethnic Estonians: ~963,000 (61.5%) Ethnic Russians: ~475,000 (~30%) Ukrainians: ~48,000 Belarusians: ~28,000 Demographic change: Ethnic Russian population increased from ~90,000 to ~475,000 Net increase in ethnic Russian population: ~385,000 Estonian share of the population fell from ~88% to 61.5% Despite nearly 50 years passing, there were slightly fewer ethnic Estonians living in Estonia in 1989 than before Soviet occupation. This isn't some Russo phobia or anti communism thing. What they have done is fucking awful and anyone who spews some bullshit about NATO expanding and threatening russia can go fuck themselves. Russia represents an existential threat to its neighbors and it has no one to blame for that sentiment besides itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) I asked for numbers about: which just meant shipping resources to moscow What your numbers don't show is the class war. The people who were deported, were they part of the elite or regular citizens? It also seems like the migrants are not only Russians: mobilized mostly among Russians, as well as other parts of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia What I don't understand is the logic of the resettlement. Most migrants are in one county close to Russia. That's only a bit more helpful to influence the population than having them live across the border in Russia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ManixT@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) Well with the USSR, countries were occupied, countless people murdered and exiled, families destroyed, and forcefully replaced with russians who would influence the future of their states forever. What the USSR did with russification is just like what the israelies are doing in the west bank with their "settlers". The USSR was an imperialist colonizer and was fucking awful; not some heroic response to the west. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) with russians who would influence the future Sent there by a Georgian. Unless people want to end Communism, what does it matter if there are resettled people? The party had to create work for everybody. The EU has free movement. It will end the same way, only that there will be an elite that owns everything but doesn't share. is just like what the israelies are doing in the west bank with their “settlers”. I have read about resettlements gone wrong but has the USSR resettled people without offering new land? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) It "had to create work for everybody"? By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? That sounds normal to you? Without offering new land? russia straight up stole the land from these people and gave them to russians in the name of their fake communism which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? Was it entire people or just the elite? which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. Do you have numbers? I have seen numbers that like before the war, Russia exported oil for cheap. The fewer resources compared to today were caused by the smaller economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 child) Here's just Estonia: SOVIET REPRESSION AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN ESTONIA Before Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.13 million Ethnic Estonians: ~1.0 million (~88%) Ethnic Russians: ~90,000 (~8%) Soviet repression: People deported from Estonia: ~50,000 June 1941 mass deportation: ~10,000 March 1949 mass deportation: ~20,000–21,000 Men forcibly mobilized and transported into the USSR in 1941: ~32,000–34,000 People murdered, imprisoned, or deported by the Soviet regime: more than 75,000 Identified victims who were killed or died in imprisonment/forced resettlement and never returned: more than 22,000 By 1989, near the end of Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.57 million Ethnic Estonians: ~963,000 (61.5%) Ethnic Russians: ~475,000 (~30%) Ukrainians: ~48,000 Belarusians: ~28,000 Demographic change: Ethnic Russian population increased from ~90,000 to ~475,000 Net increase in ethnic Russian population: ~385,000 Estonian share of the population fell from ~88% to 61.5% Despite nearly 50 years passing, there were slightly fewer ethnic Estonians living in Estonia in 1989 than before Soviet occupation. This isn't some Russo phobia or anti communism thing. What they have done is fucking awful and anyone who spews some bullshit about NATO expanding and threatening russia can go fuck themselves. Russia represents an existential threat to its neighbors and it has no one to blame for that sentiment besides itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) I asked for numbers about: which just meant shipping resources to moscow What your numbers don't show is the class war. The people who were deported, were they part of the elite or regular citizens? It also seems like the migrants are not only Russians: mobilized mostly among Russians, as well as other parts of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia What I don't understand is the logic of the resettlement. Most migrants are in one county close to Russia. That's only a bit more helpful to influence the population than having them live across the border in Russia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) with russians who would influence the future Sent there by a Georgian. Unless people want to end Communism, what does it matter if there are resettled people? The party had to create work for everybody. The EU has free movement. It will end the same way, only that there will be an elite that owns everything but doesn't share. is just like what the israelies are doing in the west bank with their “settlers”. I have read about resettlements gone wrong but has the USSR resettled people without offering new land? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) It "had to create work for everybody"? By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? That sounds normal to you? Without offering new land? russia straight up stole the land from these people and gave them to russians in the name of their fake communism which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? Was it entire people or just the elite? which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. Do you have numbers? I have seen numbers that like before the war, Russia exported oil for cheap. The fewer resources compared to today were caused by the smaller economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 child) Here's just Estonia: SOVIET REPRESSION AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN ESTONIA Before Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.13 million Ethnic Estonians: ~1.0 million (~88%) Ethnic Russians: ~90,000 (~8%) Soviet repression: People deported from Estonia: ~50,000 June 1941 mass deportation: ~10,000 March 1949 mass deportation: ~20,000–21,000 Men forcibly mobilized and transported into the USSR in 1941: ~32,000–34,000 People murdered, imprisoned, or deported by the Soviet regime: more than 75,000 Identified victims who were killed or died in imprisonment/forced resettlement and never returned: more than 22,000 By 1989, near the end of Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.57 million Ethnic Estonians: ~963,000 (61.5%) Ethnic Russians: ~475,000 (~30%) Ukrainians: ~48,000 Belarusians: ~28,000 Demographic change: Ethnic Russian population increased from ~90,000 to ~475,000 Net increase in ethnic Russian population: ~385,000 Estonian share of the population fell from ~88% to 61.5% Despite nearly 50 years passing, there were slightly fewer ethnic Estonians living in Estonia in 1989 than before Soviet occupation. This isn't some Russo phobia or anti communism thing. What they have done is fucking awful and anyone who spews some bullshit about NATO expanding and threatening russia can go fuck themselves. Russia represents an existential threat to its neighbors and it has no one to blame for that sentiment besides itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) I asked for numbers about: which just meant shipping resources to moscow What your numbers don't show is the class war. The people who were deported, were they part of the elite or regular citizens? It also seems like the migrants are not only Russians: mobilized mostly among Russians, as well as other parts of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia What I don't understand is the logic of the resettlement. Most migrants are in one county close to Russia. That's only a bit more helpful to influence the population than having them live across the border in Russia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ManixT@lemmy.world 5 points 5 days ago (1 child) It "had to create work for everybody"? By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? That sounds normal to you? Without offering new land? russia straight up stole the land from these people and gave them to russians in the name of their fake communism which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? Was it entire people or just the elite? which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. Do you have numbers? I have seen numbers that like before the war, Russia exported oil for cheap. The fewer resources compared to today were caused by the smaller economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 child) Here's just Estonia: SOVIET REPRESSION AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN ESTONIA Before Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.13 million Ethnic Estonians: ~1.0 million (~88%) Ethnic Russians: ~90,000 (~8%) Soviet repression: People deported from Estonia: ~50,000 June 1941 mass deportation: ~10,000 March 1949 mass deportation: ~20,000–21,000 Men forcibly mobilized and transported into the USSR in 1941: ~32,000–34,000 People murdered, imprisoned, or deported by the Soviet regime: more than 75,000 Identified victims who were killed or died in imprisonment/forced resettlement and never returned: more than 22,000 By 1989, near the end of Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.57 million Ethnic Estonians: ~963,000 (61.5%) Ethnic Russians: ~475,000 (~30%) Ukrainians: ~48,000 Belarusians: ~28,000 Demographic change: Ethnic Russian population increased from ~90,000 to ~475,000 Net increase in ethnic Russian population: ~385,000 Estonian share of the population fell from ~88% to 61.5% Despite nearly 50 years passing, there were slightly fewer ethnic Estonians living in Estonia in 1989 than before Soviet occupation. This isn't some Russo phobia or anti communism thing. What they have done is fucking awful and anyone who spews some bullshit about NATO expanding and threatening russia can go fuck themselves. Russia represents an existential threat to its neighbors and it has no one to blame for that sentiment besides itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) I asked for numbers about: which just meant shipping resources to moscow What your numbers don't show is the class war. The people who were deported, were they part of the elite or regular citizens? It also seems like the migrants are not only Russians: mobilized mostly among Russians, as well as other parts of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia What I don't understand is the logic of the resettlement. Most migrants are in one county close to Russia. That's only a bit more helpful to influence the population than having them live across the border in Russia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] plyth@feddit.org -3 points 5 days ago (1 child) By deporting native people from their land and replacing them with russians? Was it entire people or just the elite? which just meant shipping resources to moscow as the expense of the countries they illegally occupied. Do you have numbers? I have seen numbers that like before the war, Russia exported oil for cheap. The fewer resources compared to today were caused by the smaller economy. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 child) Here's just Estonia: SOVIET REPRESSION AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN ESTONIA Before Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.13 million Ethnic Estonians: ~1.0 million (~88%) Ethnic Russians: ~90,000 (~8%) Soviet repression: People deported from Estonia: ~50,000 June 1941 mass deportation: ~10,000 March 1949 mass deportation: ~20,000–21,000 Men forcibly mobilized and transported into the USSR in 1941: ~32,000–34,000 People murdered, imprisoned, or deported by the Soviet regime: more than 75,000 Identified victims who were killed or died in imprisonment/forced resettlement and never returned: more than 22,000 By 1989, near the end of Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.57 million Ethnic Estonians: ~963,000 (61.5%) Ethnic Russians: ~475,000 (~30%) Ukrainians: ~48,000 Belarusians: ~28,000 Demographic change: Ethnic Russian population increased from ~90,000 to ~475,000 Net increase in ethnic Russian population: ~385,000 Estonian share of the population fell from ~88% to 61.5% Despite nearly 50 years passing, there were slightly fewer ethnic Estonians living in Estonia in 1989 than before Soviet occupation. This isn't some Russo phobia or anti communism thing. What they have done is fucking awful and anyone who spews some bullshit about NATO expanding and threatening russia can go fuck themselves. Russia represents an existential threat to its neighbors and it has no one to blame for that sentiment besides itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) I asked for numbers about: which just meant shipping resources to moscow What your numbers don't show is the class war. The people who were deported, were they part of the elite or regular citizens? It also seems like the migrants are not only Russians: mobilized mostly among Russians, as well as other parts of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia What I don't understand is the logic of the resettlement. Most migrants are in one county close to Russia. That's only a bit more helpful to influence the population than having them live across the border in Russia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 child) Here's just Estonia: SOVIET REPRESSION AND DEMOGRAPHIC CHANGES IN ESTONIA Before Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.13 million Ethnic Estonians: ~1.0 million (~88%) Ethnic Russians: ~90,000 (~8%) Soviet repression: People deported from Estonia: ~50,000 June 1941 mass deportation: ~10,000 March 1949 mass deportation: ~20,000–21,000 Men forcibly mobilized and transported into the USSR in 1941: ~32,000–34,000 People murdered, imprisoned, or deported by the Soviet regime: more than 75,000 Identified victims who were killed or died in imprisonment/forced resettlement and never returned: more than 22,000 By 1989, near the end of Soviet occupation: Population of Estonia: ~1.57 million Ethnic Estonians: ~963,000 (61.5%) Ethnic Russians: ~475,000 (~30%) Ukrainians: ~48,000 Belarusians: ~28,000 Demographic change: Ethnic Russian population increased from ~90,000 to ~475,000 Net increase in ethnic Russian population: ~385,000 Estonian share of the population fell from ~88% to 61.5% Despite nearly 50 years passing, there were slightly fewer ethnic Estonians living in Estonia in 1989 than before Soviet occupation. This isn't some Russo phobia or anti communism thing. What they have done is fucking awful and anyone who spews some bullshit about NATO expanding and threatening russia can go fuck themselves. Russia represents an existential threat to its neighbors and it has no one to blame for that sentiment besides itself. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] plyth@feddit.org -2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) I asked for numbers about: which just meant shipping resources to moscow What your numbers don't show is the class war. The people who were deported, were they part of the elite or regular citizens? It also seems like the migrants are not only Russians: mobilized mostly among Russians, as well as other parts of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia What I don't understand is the logic of the resettlement. Most migrants are in one county close to Russia. That's only a bit more helpful to influence the population than having them live across the border in Russia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] plyth@feddit.org -2 points 5 days ago* (1 child) I asked for numbers about: which just meant shipping resources to moscow What your numbers don't show is the class war. The people who were deported, were they part of the elite or regular citizens? It also seems like the migrants are not only Russians: mobilized mostly among Russians, as well as other parts of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Estonia What I don't understand is the logic of the resettlement. Most migrants are in one county close to Russia. That's only a bit more helpful to influence the population than having them live across the border in Russia. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ManixT@lemmy.world 2 points 4 days ago (2 children) Glad you're focused on how they shipped more resources to moscow and leningrad instead of the human impact. Tells a lot about you. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent [–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] mrbutterscotch@feddit.org 1 point 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) Don't bother with him. He's so deep into the Authoritarian/tankie rabbithole, that he hasn't realised he turned into a fascist imperialist by pleading that countries shouldn't have sovereignty and that the forceful relocation of a peoples against their will is a good thing. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] plyth@feddit.org 0 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) I didn't, but you haven't continued that part: Was it entire people or just the elite? Btw, your human impact argument is almost entirely about the racial purity of Estonia. I think you don't see the danger of that. The capitalistic elite uses that identity to let the workers fight against Communism and now Russia. Once control is established, wages will be reduced as you can see in Germany after reunification. You can't rely on trickle down economics. On top, within the EU, Estonian companies may not even be owned by Estonians. Then Estonians will not be able to afford children and the companies will seek migrant workers, as you can see in other parts of the EU. Look at the elections of South American governments and the US prison population or US health care. That's the final development you are rooting for. That doesn't mean that we should bring back the USSR or hand over Europe to Putin. Just make sure that your aversion of Russia isn't used against you. permalink fedilink source parent
