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SocDem liberals just waitin to rip off the mask
(thelemmy.club)
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this post was submitted on 20 Mar 2026
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That's what I said; the center defines the standard. The US is authoritarian by social-democratic standards.
"Class struggle" is not a one-dimensional variable, and the mode of production is to a significant extent a choice made by those within the system. A revolution has degrees of freedom for who is in its circle of solidarity.
State communists mistake the state/vanguard as a neutral outsider rather than a material entity. Authority left to fester will shape the material conditions to enshrine the authority at the cost of those without authority.
Social democrats tend not to call the US authoritarian (I have yet to see it). They're too busy negotiating their cut of imperial plunder, welfare states built on extracted surplus and "human rights" rhetoric that conveniently ignores sanctions and coups. If "the center defines the standard," then the standard isn't about coercion; it's about loyalty to capital (as I already pointed out). The label only sticks to those who break ranks (refuse to bend the knee to the EuroAmerikan hegemony).
On mode of production as "choice": this is idealism, pure and simple. Putting the cart before the horse. Ideas don't shape the material base; the material base shapes ideas. Capitalism didn't arrive because someone imagined it. Feudal relations broke because they could no longer contain the productive forces, guilds choked industry, serfdom blocked labor, divine right couldn't manage global accumulation. Socialism isn't a fairy tale we opt into. It becomes necessary when capital's own contradictions (overproduction, immiseration, ecological rupture) can no longer be managed within private ownership. And solidarity isn't moral selection or simply who we like or don't like. It's determined by objective interests. The Chinese revolution for example united workers, peasants, and the national bourgeoisie not because of abstract ideals, but because all three had material stakes in smashing imperialist and feudal domination.
On the vanguard: have you read Lenin? Mao? The entire point is that it is NOT neutral. The vanguard is explicitly the organized, conscious detachment of the proletariat, an instrument of class rule, just like the bourgeois state, but inverted. The difference isn't the existence of authority; it's which class wields it, for what end, and whether its practice is tied to mass line feedback. To conflate proletarian dictatorship with bourgeois state power is to erase the question of class content.
Authority isn't a substance that "festers." It's a relation, grounded in who controls production, who allocates surplus, who defends or transforms property forms. You can't analyze it like a moral contaminant. You have to trace it to its material base. When authority serves to socialize wealth, decommodify life, and break imperial chains, it isn't reproducing domination, it's creating the conditions where coercion itself becomes obsolete.
If material conditions are all that shapes ideas, why are you speaking ideas at me? Either you are incorrect or you are wasting your time, and I don't think you're wasting your time.
In a world where ideas don't matter, either of us working against our class interests through ignorance is incoherent. If we can be deceived to act against our class interests to change material conditions to serve the rich, then ideas can change material conditions.
People can interpret their interests different ways. People can ally themselves with specific groups but not others. People can have different levels of risk aversion. People can be affected by propaganda and charisma. Ideas skew praxis skews the development of material conditions.
Neglect this at your own peril. Use it to make fairy tales come true.
What class attributes do the authorities in the vanguard have in common with the proletariat?
Ok, I'm going to try lay this out as clearly as I can, because I think you're mixing up what materialism and idealism actually mean (even if we haven't used their names to this point it is the core of the argument).
The main tool of my analysis is materialism. Put simply: the way people organise production, how they meet their needs, who owns what, who has to sell their labour, this is the foundation. Ideas, culture, politics, they arise from and reflect that material base. They aren't illusions, but they don't float free. People think and act, but they do so within conditions they didn't choose.
Ideas matter. People can be persuaded, misled, organised, educated. But those ideas only take hold because they connect to real conditions. You can't sustain a set of ideas that are completely out of step with how people actually live. And you can't just will a new society into existence because it sounds good. Ideas move things along, but they don't set the underlying terrain.
What you're arguing with is idealism. In short, idealism puts ideas first. It treats consciousness, values, or narratives as the engine of history, as if reality bends to what people believe rather than belief being shaped by reality. When you say the mode of production is a "choice," or that solidarity is basically a matter of interpretation, you're putting ideas in the driver's seat. That treats history like a competition between narratives, where whichever idea wins out determines reality.
But that's not how it works. People don't get to pick a mode of production the way they pick a belief. Capitalism didn't arise because it was persuasive. It arose because older systems stopped functioning under pressure and new relations became necessary to keep production going. The same logic applies to any transition out of it. There's a reason certain ideas appear at certain times and not others, and it's not just because someone made a good argument.
None of this means people are robots or that they can't act against their interests. Obviously they can. Propaganda exists, divisions exist, fear exists. But even that happens within limits. If ideas were truly primary, you wouldn't need to look at anything outside discourse to explain social change, and that clearly doesn't hold up.
On your last point, you're also treating "authority" as if it automatically creates a class, and that's just not how class works. Class isn't about who gives orders day to day. It's about relationship to the means of production. Who owns them as property, who controls them in a way that lets them extract surplus, who can pass that control on.
Administrators, officials, organisers, these are roles within a system. In a system where production isn't privately owned as capital, people in those roles don't become a separate class just because they have authority. They don't own the factories, land, or infrastructure as something they can sell or accumulate. Their position depends on the broader structure, not the other way around.
If that changes, if people in those positions start turning control into private, inheritable ownership, then you're dealing with a class shift. But that has to be shown in actual material terms. You don't get there just by pointing at hierarchy and calling it a class.
I love your writing comrade, and excellent points
Thank you 🫡