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[+] -16 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (24 children)

Even if that's true, so what? You are just pointing out one possible reason why communism doesn't work in reality. Still doesn't work.

If I say my immortal potion recipe would work in an alternate reality where humans didn't breathe oxygen, it does not make it any more useful. Equally, in our reality, coups, assassinations and embargoes exist. If a political system can't withstand them, it is not useful.

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  • [–] 21 points 10 months ago (11 children)

    This is like saying the idea of solar panels is bad because capitalists work against them to destroy their reputation. Judging a system based on the assumption that theres someone else trying to destroy it is very simple minded.

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  • [+] -10 points 10 months ago* (10 children)

    A political and economic system is not some random piece of infrastructure, like a solar panel. It's more comparable to a padlock. It's entire point is to manage human nature. If all people were benevolent and willing to work for collective good on their own, we wouldn't need political systems at all. Neither would we need padlocks. A padlock that can't hinder an intruder is a bad padlock. A political or economic system that can't handle human nature (greed, lust for power) is a bad system.

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  • [–] 12 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (9 children)

    A political and economic system is not some random piece of infrastructure, like a solar panel.

    And its also not a magic potion.

    A padlock that can't hinder an intruder is a bad padlock.

    A political and economic system is not some random piece of infrastructure object, like a solar panel padlock.

    Youre saying a political system can only work if there is not a single aspect that can be taken advantage of? Thats equivalent to every single person being controlled 100% in their actions. If thats your idea of ideal, sure. I guess some people currently being in leading positions would agree with you.

    The US is currently in the middle of a fascist takeover, while being a Democracy (in the past at least). Are you saying Democracy is not a political system worth pursuing because it doesnt work?

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  • [+] -7 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (8 children)

    Youre saying a political system can only work if there is not a single aspect that can be taken advantage of? Thats equivalent to every single person being controlled 100% in their actions.

    I did not say anything even close to that. I am saying a political system can only work if it can't be easily overturned. It has nothing to do with how much it controls peoples lives or if it can be taken advantage of.

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  • [–] 8 points 10 months ago (7 children)

    So just to be clear, there doesnt currently exist a political system that works, as they all have been overturned multiple times?

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  • [–] -3 points 10 months ago* (6 children)

    What is this bullshit argument? If a lightbulb stops working after 10 years, is it as useless as a lightbulb that breaks after 10 minutes?

    can't be easily overturned

    Did I write they have to be impossible to overturn? Why don't you read what I write more carefully instead of reacting to some made up version of my comment.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    What is this bullshit argument?

    Your argument.

    What is this bullshit argument? If a lightbulb stops working after 10 years, is it as useless as a lightbulb that breaks after 10 minutes?

    Did I write they have to be impossible to overturn?

    Why are you implying that real communism would be easily overturned? Its never been implemented.

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    The Russian Revolution was communist but the USSR was never communist.

    This whole thread is about communism always collapsing into authoritarianism so quickly it is not even ever "really implemented".

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    So if monarchs would have succeeded in suppressing democracy until today (not very far fetched by the way), that would be proof of Democracy being a bad system?

    Think about what youre even saying.

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    Maybe you should work on your reading comprehension skills. I never wrote anything like that.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    They're using the logic you introduced in your claim to turn your claim on its head.

    If you can't recognize that, then who really has comprehension skill issues?

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago)

    There is no logic in their claim. It's an absurd what if. Monarchies were unable to suppress democracies. It's like saying "what if communism causes the sun to explode". That would be bad, but it's not reality.

    PS: I guess I can also address the logic part notwithstanding the ridiculous assumption. Suppress by an external country is not the same as supporting a coup, which is exacerbating an internal problem. No system can withstand an overwhelming external force, but we need it to at least withstand covert agitation of internal issues. Because that is something that does happen in reality, between US, Russia, Iran, China, you have no lack of agitators. You won't be able to exist in a bubble.

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  • [–] 11 points 10 months ago (5 children)

    In many of these cases, the political system which couldn't withstand coups were democracies. Does this mean that democracy isn't useful? Are you saying that democracies should forbid socialists from being elected since if they get elected then america will intervene and the democracy will cease to be useful? Sounds like you don't care for democracy and self-determination of nations. Bonus points will be awarded for being able to make your point without a potion metaphor.

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  • [–] -4 points 10 months ago* (4 children)

    My entire point is that political systems like democracies are not isolated from economic systems. Democracies fail when combined with communism, because all power is concentrated in the political apparatus, leaving no leverage for the rest of the population. Then, seizing power and removing democracy is too easy.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    The problem isn't political systems, it's superpowers intervening, e.g. america funding fascist coups of democratically elected socialists. It would be hard for any small nation, regardless of political system, to defend against a coup funded by a superpower. Please prove me wrong and tell me how e.g. the coup in Chile 1973 could have been prevented by decentralizing power.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago* (2 children)

    The problem isn't political systems, it's superpowers intervening

    There can be more than one problem.

    Please prove me wrong and tell me how e.g. the coup in Chile 1973 could have been prevented by decentralizing power.

    A coup still inherently relies on there being internal forces willing to execute said coup. I don't dare say being capitalist could have stopped this particular one, quite likely it couldn't. But it it is at least more resilient in general.

    If it was impossible to resist superpower sponsored coups, I am sure the Baltics wouldn't be able to remain democratic right next to Russia.

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  • [–] 2 points 10 months ago (1 child)

    There can be more than one problem.

    That's not what you've been saying until now.

    A coup still inherently relies on there being internal forces willing to execute said coup.

    No shit, what are you trying to say? Are you saying there exists political systems which are immune to people wanting to stage a coup?

    I don’t dare say being capitalist could have stopped this particular one, quite likely it couldn’t. But it it is at least more resilient in general.

    How would it be more resilient?

    If it was impossible to resist superpower sponsored coups, I am sure the Baltics wouldn’t be able to remain democratic right next to Russia.

    What coup attempts are you talking about? Let's try to focus on coups that were at least attempted or has any substantial evidence of being in the works.

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago*

    What coup attempts are you talking about? Let's try to focus on coups that were at least attempted or has any substantial evidence of being in the works.

    I am not talking about coup attempts. I am exactly talking about lack of coup attempts in countries, where you would expect superpowers to start one if they could. But they can't. I failed coup attempt already signals instability of your system. Or do you believe a good political system should have regular coup attempts that have to be suppressed by force?

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  • [–] 1 point 10 months ago

    The capitalist apparatus requires emmense effort to maintain. Military, police, propaganda, bailouts,... Its not self sustaining and its not natural. For comparison, cooperative, democratically controlled workplaces, have greater survival rates than their conventional, privately owned firms. Not to mention workers or more likely paid a living wage, have greater job stability and satisfaction, and just as likely, if not more so to lead to innovation. Its literally proven a better economic system, but yet some still think it offers empty promises.

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  • [–] -2 points 10 months ago (4 children)

    You're discussing with brainwashed tankies who can only answer "what about xyz in the west" to any kind of, even constructive, criticism.

    Lots of anarchists are like that too, a shame because there is surely something to take from those kind of ideas.

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  • [–] 4 points 10 months ago (3 children)

    If you say something is bad, you must have some frame of reference to know how bad it is. So if you say communism is bad, we will want to know, “relative to what?” And since capitalism and western hegemony are the dominant systems, naturally they will draw comparisons. And those comparisons will be unfavorable since capitalism is clearly broken and incentivizes great evil.

    So OK, we’re still not really discussing the merits and flaws of communism as they stand on their own, but most of you aren’t ready to accept that almost everything you have learned about communism is a lie and you definitely aren’t ready to engage with the actual historical record.

    So instead, the arguments revolve around what-aboutisms. Because most of you deny the evidence of your eyes and just listen to daddy. Long before we can delve into how the soviets actually existed in the world, you have dismissed us as “tankies” and stuck your fingers in your ears.

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  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago (2 children)

    I must also stop believing my eyes and ears as I grew up in a country bordering the URSS.

    I went there. It was a hell hole. Nothing to buy in the stores. I can tell you more.

    It also was trying to invade or coerce its neighbours. All The Time. They (the russians) still do.

    Capitalism has its flaws but that doesn't mean the soviet union was in any way good. Ffs open a history book, travel, go there and talk to people who lived during the brutal dictatorship of the soviet union and maybe You can open Your eyes.

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  • [–] 3 points 10 months ago (1 child)
  • [–] -1 points 10 months ago

    That's not data lol, that's anecdotes and nostalgia.

    And it has a name Ostalgie look it up. People are nostalgic of a place the URSS promised them, but it never came through.

    You can easily find data that shows how shitty the soviet union was (or do you too believe the propaganda from that era?).

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