528
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 07 Jun 2025
528 points (89.2% liked)
Fuck Cars
12033 readers
1193 users here now
A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!
Rules
1. Be Civil
You may not agree on ideas, but please do not be needlessly rude or insulting to other people in this community.
2. No hate speech
Don't discriminate or disparage people on the basis of sex, gender, race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, or sexuality.
3. Don't harass people
Don't follow people you disagree with into multiple threads or into PMs to insult, disparage, or otherwise attack them. And certainly don't doxx any non-public figures.
4. Stay on topic
This community is about cars, their externalities in society, car-dependency, and solutions to these.
5. No reposts
Do not repost content that has already been posted in this community.
Moderator discretion will be used to judge reports with regard to the above rules.
Posting Guidelines
In the absence of a flair system on lemmy yet, let’s try to make it easier to scan through posts by type in here by using tags:
- [meta] for discussions/suggestions about this community itself
- [article] for news articles
- [blog] for any blog-style content
- [video] for video resources
- [academic] for academic studies and sources
- [discussion] for text post questions, rants, and/or discussions
- [meme] for memes
- [image] for any non-meme images
- [misc] for anything that doesn’t fall cleanly into any of the other categories
Recommended communities:
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
This is how cyclists feel when they are surrounded by cars on busy roads because the cycling infrastructure is shit.
Except, cyclists can't kill people in cars with their bike.
So, lady, imagine our frustration.
Edit: spelling 🤦♂️
They feel like cars are coming from both sides of the road through red lights?
Where do you bike?
Yes.
I've witnessed cars driving in the wrong lanes (headed towards me) as they recklessly pass drivers.
I've seen drivers turning onto dedicated bike paths.
I've seen drivers jumping curbs. In the city, they've even managed to hop TALL, concrete barriers protecting bike lanes.
I've seen numerous cars flying through stop signs and red lights. At least a few times per week. And even more "stopping" on crosswalks.
I've witnessed a teen getting hit by a car while she used a crosswalk in front of her school. I've nearly been hit several times crossing at intersections, too. I saw an elderly man who was almost run over by a car turning right without slowing down (the driver then yelled at the old man).
If you think these are rare occurrences, you likely don't live anywhere near cars. This shit happens all the time, everywhere.
And I won't even bring up aggressive drivers who are hostile towards cyclists and use their cars as weapons.
Cool, as they pass drivers. Did you see them drive en masse the wrong way through red lights? Come on, you know you haven't. You know how dangerous it is. Even if it were people walking, it would be dangerous; this isn't safe. This is so dishonest.
Are there bad drivers, yes. But no where, in any city, are drivers doing what these bikers did. Taking up the entire road to drive the wrong way as dozens of them go through red lights.
No, no it doesn't. And this is why bikers are often ridiculed by people. I want safer roads, but I don't claim that cars drive both ways on the road and through red lights by the dozens.
This shit happens all the time everywhere? Really. Everywhere, cars are just all going the same direction, ignoring every traffic law en masse with no cops doing anything? This is so dishonest, again. There are so many good points and ways to fight for more biker safety, creating false narratives isn't one of them.
How is this relevant to the point at all? This feels more like ranting that discussing the topic on hand. How these bikers are breaking traffic laws in ways cars do not, and in doing so are putting themselves and others in danger for 0 gain. This feels like an "own the libs" thing for bikers where making drivers get upset is the only point. Which a lot of people seem excited about in this thread, further proving that point.
Good because it's not relevant. I'm saying cars don't drive like these bikers do. They are acting extremely unsafe for no reason. This doesn't help gain any support or change anyone mind. If anything it makes people hate us bikers more.
I think you're a little too focused on the one very specific way the bicycles were being unsafe in the video. Every example they listed was another way that cars are driven irresponsibly all the time, not just during a critical mass event where the point is to flood the streets with bicycles.
You're right. I was trying to talk about this specific incident originally and the other commenter kept trying to pivot or change the topic. I was talking about this behavior that is so far outside the norm. The person who replied to me tried to act like cars do this too, but then started talking about all the other things cars do.
But to be clear, I bike very often. And while doing so I do see plenty of bikers break the laws and act unsafe in ways that can cause accidents. Do I see bad bikers as often as I see bad drivers? Hell no. But they do exist, and in this community the stance is often all drivers are evil no matter what and bikers are always right. We can see this with the justification of this protest. It doesn't help us get where we want to be. That's my point.
You do realize that this was a Critical Mass event, right?
In that context, YES, I've seen cars in large groups going through red lights and driving the wrong way during similar events. In fact, just this past weekend, I saw numerous cars going through red lights at a local Pride Parade 😘
If you take a survey of stop signs, you'll find that the majority of motorists do NOT stop at those signs. Hundreds of cars per intersection per day.
This ship happens all the time, everywhere, was referring to the list I wrote of things I encounter on a regular basis.
I didn't touch on speeding.
Cops will only "do something" if they can catch someone.
And when we have "traffic enforcement blitzes", what do you know? We catch a LOT of drivers behaving badly. It's too bad we only do this a few times out of the year.
I think you'd be surprised to learn about the history (and purpose) of Critical Mass, because it's not "for no reason". It's quite literally a form of direct action to promote cycling safety and activism.
And the fact that they are riding in a large group makes them safer.
These events happen all around the world, and are widely celebrated as powerful social movements.
I cited Critical Mass and documentation about it in my response a lot. I think you might have a lot to learn about the movement based on your reply.
At a parade? One that has permits and works with the city? Yah... lol. Looking into criticall mass is says "These events are spontaneous and unpermitted." Do you know the difference between a permitted event and one that's not? Traffic can be re routed, cops can be places to manage traffic. This is not that. On CM it says "The routes of some rides are decided spontaneously by whoever is currently at the front of the ride." That means anyone can do whatever, causing massive issues with traffic and safety. What a false equivalency.
Looking further into it, they give the reason: The disorganized nature of the event allows it to largely escape clampdown by authorities who may view the rides as forms of parades or organized protest.
So they know it's dangerous and doesn't have the permits needed to make it safe, which is why parades and such need them, but they see that as a pro. They basically take to the streets to break the law en masse and inconvenience everyone, including emergency services and they think this will make more people want to support bikers?
This is either being dishonest or not understanding what I said. I'm not talking about an aggregate across the country, I'm talking about dozens doing it at once in such a way that it creates a wall that can cause an accident.
Lol, so cops should just mail tickets to people randomly? You have to catch someone committing a crime to charge them with it. That's how the law works....
I see plenty of bikers breaking traffic laws too, every week when I ride. None of them get tickets either. Doing the things they do like going across a cross walk when they don't have the right away, could cause an accident. But you conveniently ignore that and the laws they break.
Not surprised. You can do something for a long time for no reason. CM started in the 1990s. If it's not pointless, please show me the changes it has pushed or championed. I would love to know all the good work that came from CM aside from performative protesting.
Yah, so they can safely ignore all traffic rules and literally break laws to put on this show. Laws meant to keep people safe. You realize that right?
Also they are literally breaking off to try to control traffic.
From CM: In the Critical Mass practice of "corking", a rider breaks away from the group to block the side streets of an intersection as the mass crosses. This prevents traffic travelling through the intersection on a green signal and allows the riders to ride through red lights. This both contains cross-traffic while the mass passes and protects the mass from splitting or from drivers who might attempt to pass through the mass.
They are not only unsafely trying to control traffic, they are causing mass congestion, again for no reason but some parade of bikers they decided to do without proper permits. This is such a "look at me, I'm the main character" movement.
Powerful? Sure, but powerful isn't always positive. I mean take a step back and look at this from a normal persons point of view, someone who is not an avid cyclist. This doesn't make me think they need more safety or protection; this makes me think they are reckless and a nuisance. This does nothing but make drivers hate bikers more, this doesn't change minds, at all.
Argh... my browser crashed as I had almost finished my reply. 😱
I'll condense my points:
Yes, it's a protest. Just like with protests involving pedestrians, the streets get filled and people "ignore the rules".
To this point, let me expand on what I mean.
The absence of a ticket does not mean the behaviour doesn't exist. There are a LOT of motorists who run reds, ignore stop signs, drive over the speed limit, don't use signals, make illegal turns, park illegally, drive while intoxicated, etc. More than you'd think.
If you set up automated speed cameras, red light cameras, DUI checkpoints, and school zone blitzes, suddenly you realize that it's more than just a few drivers behaving badly. And that's during normal traffic, not during a protest.
It's hard to quantify, because this form of protest operates on many levels:
As with other protests, this is normal. And those traffic rules... are only there because cars make public spaces unsafe. People don't need traffic rules.
On the flip side, would you prefer that every single cyclist in that group STOP at every single red light and stop sign? I'm a massive fan of that type of malicious compliance, so I'd be OK with that, too.
Man, I don't even know what to say.
When I see protests, even when I don't know the motivations or goals, I still respect and value the right to protest.
And if someone "hates cyclists" because of a protest like Critical Mass, they probably hate black people, gays, Palestinians, workers, the disabled, unions, First Nations, environmentalists, animal rights, and other groups of people who deserve to be heard and seen through public protests.
Then why did you bring up the Pride parade? You said: "I’ve seen cars in large groups going through red lights and driving the wrong way during similar events. In fact, just this past weekend, I saw numerous cars going through red lights at a local Pride Parade." That is a permitted event. Driving the wrong way can be permitted by a, ya know, permit. Bringing this up then saying "of course their breaking the rules" only proves my point. Bikes are doing this, cars do not unless it is done legally with a permit. And you saying "ya I know" means you knew that but presented it anyway. That's extremely dishonest.
And I'm sure you'd find the same with biking. Many bikers break laws about where to cross or how to handle intersections and are just ignored all the time.
Do these people not know about side streets or bike paths or anything else? There are places to bike outside of traffic. If anything this is making it worse because you're not just driving around traffic, you're driving into it and trying to control it. This is a weak reason to but people in danger.
So the only way to show people that bikers exist is by massively disrupting traffic and causing safety issues? Yah, it brings attention to them, but not the good kind.
Or it shows the government that bikers don't listen to traffic laws and do whatever they want. This doesn't make the government do anything except maybe arrest some bikers for breaking the law.
See, this has been going on for 35 years and the only thing you can point at is maybe it might have possible sped up some cycling infrastructure. Maybe. Yah, that's not a lot of progress for 35 years of this nonsense. There are much more effective ways.
This is just wild.... People need traffic rules. Have you ever been in a large crowded city? Do you know all the foot TRAFFIC rules? There is literally a section of code on just this. And yes, cars exist, but what do you propose to avoid needing these rules, have no cars at all? That's absurd. Look at rural areas and tell me how that works.
No, I would prefer they don't disrupt an entire city for some performance that has gone on for 35 years with nothing to show for it. It's just an excuse to protest and "stick it to the drivers."
Ok, now imagine you are late to pick up a family member from the hospital, or you're going to miss an interview, or a million other things. With a little empathy, you can quickly realize how this would cause issues for people, all for what? I can respect the goals, but I don't respect the way they have chosen to reach those goals.
Jesus, you just went nuclear there huh? If someone hates cyclists for doing something like this they must be a bigot and racist? Tell me more about how you're willing to empathize with the other side to reach a conclusion, FFS. You've decided that drivers are the enemy and so now they suddenly don't matter at all. You can just assume they're racist, sexist, anti-worker, hate animals, etc all from not liking bikers from this protest. Wow.
Maybe stop being so emotional and think for a moment. You can be pro-animal rights and think that what an animal rights group does is wrong. Are you really incapable of understanding that basic concept? Or can I just do anything under the banner of "cyclists' rights" and call you a racist if you disagree with my actions?
Come on, what is this nonsense?
It was sarcasm... you're comparing regular traffic rules during regular traffic to a large protest, and expecting that everyone will be following the same rules. It's just not reality.
See, that's where the problem is.
Cyclists and pedestrians are unfairly expected to act like multi-ton vehicles. They are not, and should not, have the same rules.
For instance, cyclists should be using the Idaho Stop (meaning: treat red lights as stop signs and stop signs as yield signs) because it's SAFER, more efficient, and improves traffic flow.
Pedestrians shouldn't be forced to cross roads only at crosswalks. "Jaywalking" is some BS nonsense made up to make pedestrians look like the bad guys. People don't need the same rules as heavy machinery travelling at 10-20x their speed.
There are studies showing that when cyclists "break the rules", it's often for safety. Motorists do not, and cannot, make the same excuse.
Discrimination. Cyclists and pedestrians should not be forced to go somewhere else, because of cars.
On the flip side, if a motorist sees thousands of cyclists taking up the street, they should detour someplace else. It's only fair. /s
Yes. As with any other protest, you have greater impact with greater numbers. This brings greater safety, too. "Disrupting traffic" is funny... does the movement of people only matter if they are in cars? What about the thousands of cyclists who were in constant motion, not creating their own congestion or being slowed down? Motorists can only dream of that kind of efficiency.
That's how people-first transportation infrastructure works, BTW. As a society, we should strive for this level of people-moving infrastructure.
There is no evidence of that. On the contrary, I've seen local representatives join in these unplanned group rides 🤭
Hmm. Except for the fact that cities who host these events have been getting infrastructure upgrades, often at a faster pace. It puts pressure on local governments to act. These cyclists are voters, too, and they know it.
Oh man. Have you ever seen traffic rules in a crowded mall? What about at a large venue event? Have you ever been to a very busy city where cars are blocked from access to certain roads? No traffic rules for pedestrians, because pedestrians aren't hurling by at 100km/h pushing 2000lbs of metal around.
Traffic rules are there because of cars.
If you look at any laws where a pedestrian could get a fine for "breaking the rules", it's nearly always because they are "breaking rules" designed specifically because of cars!
It sounds like you just don't want them to be able to protest.
Protests around the world happen all the time. Not just a few thousand people, but sometimes hundreds of thousands or more.
Even pedestrians do the same, for the same reasons, in "Reclaim the streets" protests.
My dude, these things happen IN REGULAR CAR TRAFFIC, on a daily basis. In fact, because of car traffic congestion, even pedestrians who have nothing to do with driving, are inconvenienced and delayed. Not fair, is it?
There is no time/place for a protest that would work well for everyone. By their very nature, this is why they are effective.
But I will say that emergency vehicles are never blocked by these protests, or any protest that I've ever witnessed. I have seen regular traffic block fire trucks, though.
I'm saying that the same intolerance towards a minority group of cyclists often spills into other groups.
You can hate that a protest is inconveniencing your drive home from work, but to hate a person for exercising their right to protest for better road safety is very much in the same vein as bigotry.
I am a driver. I have been inconvenienced by other people's protests. I've never once said I've hated a person for protesting for their right to safety, better working conditions, equal pay, or a host of other societal problems that should be challenged.
Absolutely. I've been part of animal rights protests, and have been critical of the approach that some AR groups take.
But I don't think the feeling of HATING a protester has ever crossed my mind at all. Unless they were a Nazi. I'm fine with hating Nazis.
edit: grammar
You're really close to what I'm saying. Cars don't do this. That was what I said. Many people, yourself included said cars do this. They don't. You can say it was sarcasm now but this didn't' seem sarcastic as it was your response to saying cars don't drive through red lights like the bikes are.
They don't have the same rules. There are tons of rules that apply only to vehicles and plenty of laws that apply only to bikes or people. I don't know here you're getting this concept from unless this is more sarcasm.
So cop cars, ambulances, rural areas without public transportation, they should just let people do whatever, no rules? Walk right into the road as cars do by?
They don't.... Cars don't use cross walks to cross the road. Where are you getting this concept from? Do you use a turning single when walking? How often do you get your bike inspected for road worthiness to make sure a wheel doesn't come off and cause an accident? Cars can't drive on the sidewalk, I see bikes doing this... This is so baseless and wild. You're just literally making things up.
I'd like to see these studies. A car can break the law by swerving into an empty oncoming lane to avoid hitting a person that jumping into the road. That is a VERY valid excuse to break the rules. Why are you ignoring basic reality?
So bikes should be allowed on the freeways and criss-cross up and down the highway? People should be able to just walk down the middle of the highway? Do you live in reality man?
The road was made to be used by both, not just one. But we should share? So you think cars should be able to drive on bike paths too right? Otherwise it would be "discrimination."
Roads are built for cars to use first, especially some highways. Sorry if that upsets you but it's reality. This idea that bikes should be allowed to just crowd a freeway or drive wherever they want without any rules and impede people, businesses, and emergency services is delusional.
Then I asked:
And you said:
You're either a troll or you don't live in reality. I'm done trying to talk to someone who has no problem being so extremely dishonest and delusional. If you really, truly think that the only way to show someone that biker safety issues exist is by causing massive disruption to people, businesses, and emergency services while putting lives at risk there's no convo to be had.
I didn't even bother reading the rest of your comment. You don't live in reality. You think people and cars have the same laws to follow? You think there is never a valid reason for a car to break traffic law, even to save a life? You think the only way to let people know there are bike safety issues is by putting lives in danger and disrupting emergency services?
No, you are wrong and you a delisional. Or a troll. So hard to tell these days.
Well, I gave you a long list of things that car drivers are doing, and you keep pointing to the one thing that they don't do as often.
Fine. Yes, not all drivers are driving on the wrong side of the road. Just enough to cause over 400 deaths a year on dividend highways (these are roadways with separation between direction traffic!!!) (REPORT FROM AAA)
The U.S. Department of Transportation, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reported over 1200 fatalities caused by wrong way drivers in 2022 alone! (SOURCE)
With those facts out of the way, in a protest, do you expect people to only move using the right-hand side?
Well, I live in Ontario, Canada. And "under Ontario's Highway Traffic Act, a bicycle is considered a vehicle, just like a car or truck." (SOURCE).
Not sarcasm. Cyclists are expected to wait at red lights, even if the lights remain red because they require an actual large vehicle to trigger their sensors. This is discrimination.
There are also unfair speed limits put on e-scooter and e-bike riders. Bans on using e-scooters on roads "60km/h or more). And plenty of crossings where pedestrians and cyclists must yield to vehicles, even when it should be the other way around.
Makes no sense. You are trying to apply the same rules that trucks have to a pedestrian.
I'm saying that pedestrians are forced to follow “traffic rules” designed because of cars, not because pedestrians need them.
Show me a functioning city where cars don't have rules. Because there are hundreds of examples of places where thousands of pedestrians and cyclists can move about without any of the same rules.
A few studies off the top of my head:
About compliance, there are several more that show when cyclists have better infrastructure, they don't break the rules as often, because their safety needs are being met. I don't have a link, as it was something I remember from a while ago.
Of course not. Keep cars where cars belong. They don't need to dominate every square inch of space.
I've seen cars try to get onto bike paths... honestly, if they were wider, I'm sure more drivers would try.
Drivers already park in designated bike lanes as a matter of entitlement.
When I say it's discriminatory to put disproportionate rules on cyclists and pedestrians, I mean exactly that. Large, fast machines should not be sharing space with pedestrians and cyclists. I say the same about high-powered e-bikes... they don't belong near people.
Yes, unfortunately, much of North America is car-centric in their design. But things are changing, like in Montreal, where some roads are being given back to pedestrians.
Bikes don't impede people, businesses, or emergency services. Cars do. Parked cars, cars in gridlock, cars that have crashed, and now major roadways are closed, cars not yielding to firetrucks, and especially large SUVs taking up far more space than the single occupant they are carrying.
The amount of space that bikes and people on foot take up is minimal. If you want to move people you get them out of cars.
I don't. I think it's one way, but it's certainly not the only way.
Out of curiosity, do get this fired up about "massive disruption to people, businesses, and emergency services" when other events do the same? Or is it only protesting cyclists that you have a problem with?
Like, does your blood boil when your local Santa Claus parade closes some major streets in the area? Or when a major music festival comes to town? Or the Olympics? Or... GASP... road construction to fix the damage caused by large vehicles causes significant closures?
There are 1001 disruptions caused by human activity, celebration, and protests. Yet, you've got a problem with Critical Mass. Pick your battles, man.
I've had two close calls with roundabouts. One where someone didn't look before entering and another where some tried to pass me inside the circle when they wanted to exit and I didn't.
As much as I love roundabouts, I agree that some drivers simply have no idea how they work. They stop when they don't need to, and go when they should be yielding. And as you describe, the ones with multiple lanes are even more “confusing”, despite them being quite logical in design and implementation.
Stay safe.
No, these were both in the same, single lane roundabout. And there shouldn't have been any confusion since the roundabout has been there for a while now. It was just drivers being reckless and careless, putting my life in danger by not obeying traffic laws.
Oy, vey! LOL I bet they found a reason to blame you. 😫
This gives me an idea. How about every bike gets retrofitted with a large titanium hook. The idea is that if you hit my bike, your car is pretty much totaled. Not just that but if you really hit me, the hook passes thru the radiator, thru the firewall and into the drivers asshole.
Put a little LED light on it as a warning beacon.
Maybe they could make the trucks bigger and more armored to compensate?
The all new 2026 Ford fackarator 350! With pedestrian slicer adapter and bicyclist impaler adapter! Slicer and impaler sold separately with $5000 memorial day discount!
A tactical pool noodle with a very abrasive end should do the trick.