this post was submitted on 04 May 2025
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I agree, but both utilitarianism and deontology as ethical theories fail in various ways.
We see the ways forced integration on principle is wrong, and also that forced exclusion on utility is wrong.
In the end we're stuck having to make morally imperfect choices to protect the things we care about. In the end I am happy to help carve out a safe space for women, and in this context whatever technical moral problems exist with this policy weigh lighter on my conscience considering the good the policy creates and the fact that 1. there are already plenty of other communities where men can participate and discuss on women's issues, and 2. there are no other communities like this one where only women are allowed.
And yes, I do think there is acceptance of the exceptional guy who is considered safe and a good fit and we feel it's OK to allow to comment, but the community is intended to be for women and the rule is there mostly for all the random men who walk in and start ruining the vibe.
It's the reverse, isn't it? The former is wrong on utility, the latter wrong on principle.
(I also think that "there are no other communities like this one" is not an argument for or against. If one believes that exclusion is wrong on principle, that actually increases the urgency of changing the rule, since it would restore the number of communities with that rule to 0, righting a wrong.)
Anyway, I appreciate your time and patience, and I won't take up more of it. Thank you for the good conversation.
when I said "forced integration on principle", I meant the reason for forced integration is the principle of non-exclusion or inclusion, and when I said "forced exclusion on utility" I meant forced exclusion based on the utility it provides.
Both generate wrongs. And yes, you could flip it and express it the way you said: the forced inclusion on principle is wrong because it sacrifices the good (on utility), and forced exclusion on utility is wrong because it violates inclusiveness (on principle). Sorry for the ambiguous language! 😅
I disagree, I think this context is relevant to the moral reasoning.
If society had very few integrated spaces and this were just one of many exclusionary spaces, there would be less of a reason for the existence of this community's exclusionary rule in particular, because there are already other spaces where women can go to (they don't rely on this as their only safe space).
As is, because Lemmy is male-dominated and women here have no other safe spaces, the existence of this safe space is more justified in my mind.
(Not to deny your point that the principle is no less violated, but hopefully you can see by now that that principle is not the only morally relevant fact in this situation, we need to be able to see the whole picture to make good moral judgements - laser focusing on just that principle is a mistake and I think leads to immoral conclusions despite how it feels when you are only focused on that principle.)
It is also relevant that the exclusion is motivated by women's experiences of oppression based on their gender, the desire for safety from interactions with men is not an immoral or bigoted basis on which to exclude, it is protective.
And thank you for your politeness, I am glad you appreciated my responses and I hope to see you around. ❤️