this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
89 points (100.0% liked)
the_dunk_tank
15910 readers
2 users here now
It's the dunk tank.
This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.
Rule 1: All posts must include links to the subject matter, and no identifying information should be redacted.
Rule 2: If your source is a reactionary website, please use archive.is instead of linking directly.
Rule 3: No sectarianism.
Rule 4: TERF/SWERFs Not Welcome
Rule 5: No ableism of any kind (that includes stuff like libt*rd)
Rule 6: Do not post fellow hexbears.
Rule 7: Do not individually target other instances' admins or moderators.
Rule 8: The subject of a post cannot be low hanging fruit, that is comments/posts made by a private person that have low amount of upvotes/likes/views. Comments/Posts made on other instances that are accessible from hexbear are an exception to this. Posts that do not meet this requirement can be posted to [email protected]
Rule 9: if you post ironic rage bait im going to make a personal visit to your house to make sure you never make this mistake again
founded 4 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Would you have preferred that Poland exist under indefinite Nazi occupation? If Poland is the best route from one to the other and the Nazis have an existential enemy in the Soviets, the military is going to cross over one way or another. Speaking not for the state of Poland (fuck them, those Holocaust collaborators) but for the people (minorities particularly), it is much better to get at least some insulation from the Nazi genocide via the Soviet occupation rather than, what? Another year or two before the Nazis invade and this time take over the entire country with zero state effort to protect vulnerable populations first and much less hope of the Soviets ultimately defeating them? It just doesn't make sense to me.
Insulation from Nazi genocide, as if hundreds of thousands of Poles were not sent to Syberia and Katyń didn't happen. As if Soviets didn't collaborate with Nazis forming the Ribbentrop - Molotov pact. Soviets are perpetrators of WW2 in the same way Nazis are. It's just Stalin got backstabbed by Hitler the same way he stabbed Poland in the back in 1939.
I also wonder what exactly do you mean by Polish state being Holocaust collaborators? You do realize there was no Polish state under Nazi / Soviet occupation, except for the London one? How could it have collaborated in Holocaust?
People were right though, hexbear is just a Russian propaganda tube. I don't know if you people are paid to do this subhuman work or are you really believe in this alt history bullshit you're spreading, I feel sorry for you one way or the other.
The pact was the correct move after the western powers (and Poland, afaik) refused to more proactively join the Soviets in crushing the Nazis. The Soviets could not defeat the Nazis without being able to actually reach them on land and the Soviets could not defeat the Nazis if war started then and they were alone (as the western powers hoped would happen). Given the western powers not taking the Nazi threat seriously and the geopolitical implications of that, the pact was entirely correct.
Stalin identified (what I've usually seen translated as) "Hitlerism" as the immediate mortal enemy of the Soviets since well before the pact. Incidentally, Hitler also publically identified the Soviets as mortal enemies of the Nazis, making all sorts of accusations about "Judeo-Bolshevism". These two governments were not allies and it's an abomination of historical revision to characterize it as such.
Stalin expected Hitler to violate the pact eventually, since the Soviets gained tremendous advantage from stalling and developing their semi-feudal infrastructure into something more modern. He did not, however, expect the Nazis to invade as soon as they did, was caught very unprepared, and suffered horrible losses both of soldiers and civilians (in Poland and the USSR proper) as a result. That last part is something that should be criticized, but you cannot criticize his actual errors coherently in the fantasy framework of him and Hitler being teammates.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/the-historians-under-attack-for-exploring-polands-role-in-the-holocaust
It's illegal in Poland to make claims like this, so it would not surprise me if you aren't very familiar, but on a municipal level there absolutely was collaboration between existing Polish government officials and the Nazis.
Here's another article from the most Atlanticist source you can find in journalism: https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/poland-holocaust-death-camps/552455/
If my quotes denote sections (with this being the fourth), then the first section of this comment (that the pact was correct) is a claim that isn't very popular in western historiography but definitely is present. The second and third sections (Stalin and Hitler were always enemies, that the Polish government collaborated in the Holocaust) are the standard position in western historiography even though the Stalin/Hitler one gets distorted in pop history. In countries like Poland and Ukraine, these positions are much less common in part because of reactionary campaigns by those governments to revise history in the direction of Holocaust denial (see section three of my comment and Banderites in Ukraine, respectively).
Nothing I've said here is in the realm of a crank opinion to mainstream western historians. I can expand on the western powers not being interested in stopping the Nazis until it became a direct need for their own survival, but it felt like too much of a tangent.
Starting the Holocaust
Ending the Holocaust
Get lost,
Poland literally refused to ally with the Soviets, did imperialism by trying to restore the PLC during the 1920 war, prevented the soviets from aiding german & Hungarian communists, betrayed Czechoslovakia by seizing territory in accord with hitler and did an aforementioned non-aggression pact with the funni mustache guy. Poland literally did everything it could to alienate itself from allies and torpedo its own country. Poles still try to desperately become the next member of the cracker country club and which always will/has ended in their OWN country being destroyed.