this post was submitted on 13 Dec 2024
169 points (77.3% liked)
Memes
45902 readers
1435 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
The USSR and PRC were and are examples of Socialist states run along Marxian economics, such as public ownership and central planning. If you consider Marx to be a Capitalist, I fear you haven't read him.
I just feel like creating a class of people with absolute control that mustn't be questioned under threat of absolute annihilation is a spit in the face of the most core socialist let alone communist values.
They both have one body dictating what the people's needs are that mustn't under any circumstance be challenged. Making the whole "according to needs" part null and void. Both have histories of completely neglecting their citizens in favor of pursuing imperial ambitions.
Also not calling anybody capitalist. Saying it's not really communism isn't the same as saying it's capitalism. So considering your comment I feel the need to also express that my second paragraph is in no way saying other countries haven't done the same under other systems like capitalism. Just covering my ass, feeling the ugly head of pointless what aboutism approaching.
What you describe in your first paragraph isn't what Marxists advocate for nor is it what AES states look like. You can read historical texts like Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan, or This Soviet World by Anna Louise Strong if you want to dig deeper, but overall government officials are an extension of class and not a separate class, and officials absolutely are accountable with mechanisms like Recall Elections.
More than the prior texts, though, contextualization is important, and Blackshirts and Reds does a great job of that.
Yes... I was saying the theory doesn't match the situation on the ground. And the links you gave are all theory, which I at no point argued about.
The "separate class" I mentioned was also less of a theory reference, and more of a reality on the ground. Party members are treated differently. My grandpa was a party member back in the western block and had privileges regular folk didn't. Like traveling around the globe and importing foreign "imperialist" goods seemingly at will. My mom stood out with his gifts, like wearing jeans.
Also you say they have accountability with stuff like recall elections, but I'd like to invite you to provide an example of this actually happening. Like genuinely, I can't find any. All I find is officials being ousted by other officials, never by regular everyday people. As an example of completely dodging consequences, I'd mention that soviet countries and China both tried becoming leading grain exporters while their populations fucking starved, and people complaining were just labeled liars and thieves!
Which reminds me of a saying we used to have: "Kdo nekrade, okrádá rodinu" or "Who doesn't steal, is stealing from their family". A very different context from the one above, but it paints a pretty vivid picture, so I think it's still worth sharing.
The three works I listed were history books, 2 written during the early Soviet Period and the third written shortly after the fall of the USSR. Theory is important, but so are history books, and in this case history books take priority because these are accounts of the ground. I am not sure where you get off believing them to be theory. You have your anecdotes, which can help guide your experiences, and I provided historical texts and analysis.
The first two books are theory with random anecdotes with the same citation count as my shit. If that constitutes history, than so does the Bible.
Tho I apologize for lumping then all together as the last book is actually somewhat more interesting (like actually having fucking citations). It rightfully outlines western propaganda, highlights what good happened in the USSR and what bad in the west. Tho if you actually read the thing, you'd notice IT'S JUST AS CIRTICAL OF THE SOVIET UNION! Read it your self! It mostly defends the USSR from western propaganda, but it doesn't do the same mistake you did and just deny the structural issues. Sadly it doesn't say much, as it is very much focused on critiquing the west (like the first 50%), so I kinda just dismissed it at first.
Also you completely skipped my request to provide a single example for your previous claim, sad.
The first two books are historical texts describing real atructures and events, your insistence on the contrary is meaningless. It's pointless. Pat Sloan and Anna Lousie Strong are primary sources and you deny those, only trusting those who reference primary sources. It's silly.
Further, Blackshirts is Critical, but realistically critical like I am, and not unrealistically critical like you are.
And no, I am not providing you with anything you want if you prove to double down on a false understanding of theory and history. You have proven jusy how little talking to you makes any difference if you continue to misrepresent myself.
That's not how science works. For anything to have value it needs peer review. In the case of history that means additional accounts by other people (ideally with different backgrounds) and ideally physical evidence like documents and other archeological finds. This is especially important in history, as every single piece of evidence is faulty due to distortion through bias. A single primary source all alone is literally worth shit. The last book provides multiple lengthy accounts from different primary sources and so at least meets the minimum requirement for not being immediately throw out.
Blackshirts also literally mentions some of the authoritarian issues I mentioned that you denied. The fact that in some cases it failed to properly adress the needs of the people due to abuse of power and how the structure it self accidently encouraged selfish self defeating behavior. I just added comments about party members basically being a separate class (because of the unrivaled abuse of power you refuse to dispute, while providing a book also mentioning it), while the book debunks western propaganda.
You can say I misunderstand communist theory, that's a valid criticism. But saying you refuse to engage because my understanding of history is false is dogmatic bullshit. Saying I'm unwilling to change my mind is rich when you literally just say I'm wrong, give me a book largely discussing a different topic (western propaganda and fascism) and then refuse to provide examples for your own claims. While my claims are dubious third hand accounts at best, you somehow managed to stoop below me.
I provided multiple primary sources. Blackshirts has the advantage of being written after the fall of the USSR, the other books were written within it while the authors lived there. I don't deny inefficiencies with the system, nor its flaws, I deny your baseless overcritique of them with sources provided. Blackshirts backs up the conclusions of the other books as well.