ShimmeringKoi comments on Forest of trees

Forest of trees (lemmy.ml)

submitted 2 years ago by geneva_convenience@lemmy.ml to c/memes@lemmy.ml

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[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 16 points 2 years ago* (48 children)

I'm curious, where do you think so many westerners are exposed to Russian propaganda? Because there are apparently so many victims of it these days, can't turn a corner without someone decrying all these damn Russian and Chinese shill everywhere. So where do we all come from? What exactly did we get exposed to? I know this is the part where you handwave the question away with a "Heh, they got exposed to devious foreign thought on the freaking internet smuglord " but I'm not letting you off that easy. Tell me what you think the actual specific vectors are for all this "Russian and Chinese propaganda" you see everywhere, and how it was apparently able to easily penetrate the absolute haze of American propaganda that all of us in "the west" have been force fed our entire lives.

Please account for this gaping hole in your social theory. Why so many tankies, how, and why now?

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[+] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -6 points 2 years ago (47 children)

Funny, I was just telling @Cowbee about how the tankies I see on here are insufferable & impossible to converse with.

But I'll bite. First of all, I don't appreciate the strawmen. I'm not saying that there is a lot of tankies, nor that they are here now suddenly. I'm not denying that US/Western propaganda doesn't exist, nor that it's dangerous and pervasive.

I'm just saying that I, myself, in my own experience, have seen people shilling for China or even Russia, acting like it's a fucking utopia. Russia an oligarchy, just with a different structure than most Western countries. China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil. No amount of America Bad makes China or Russia good.

In terms of propaganda sources, for example just take a look at Russia Today.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 14 points 2 years ago (15 children)

Nobody believes Russia is a Utopia.
Nobody believes the PRC is perfect, but on the right track, and especially nice in Tier 1 and 2 cities.
The CPC has over 90% support, the fact that China has a government does not mean that is "evil."

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[+] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -6 points 2 years ago (14 children)

90% support makes the whole thing more suspicious to me than anything.

I'm sure a lot of the policy that the CCP has put forward are great, especially if compared to the US counterparts, but that doesn't justify violence and oppression.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 13 points 2 years ago (7 children)

Why does it make you suspicious? Do you have legitimate grounds for this? Under the CPC, extreme poverty has been eliminated, and China went from being one of the poorest countries on the planet to a rising superpower in less than a century. When you look at the real, material change in people's lives in as short a timespan as this, it's understandable why they have a high approval rate.

Secondly, I don't know what you're referring to as "justification for violence and oppression."

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 2 years ago (6 children)

it’s understandable why they have a high approval rate.

It is. I'm not saying the number is fake. I'm saying that the CCP does not make an effort to make its government transparent and emancipate its citizens so they can form cirtical opinions. Those in power hold all the tools to keep themselves in power.

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago

I'm saying that the CCP does not make an effort to make its government transparent and emancipate its citizens so they can form cirtical opinions.

You said you don't speak Chinese.

You read this where? NYT? Radio Free Asia? Totally-Non-Governmental-Organization coincidentally lead by Atlantic Council ghouls and retired NATO generals?

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago (4 children)

On what grounds do you say the CPC does not make an effort to make its government transparent? Whole Process People's Democracy, and the general democratic processes within the PRC, require politicians to work their way up from small, local rungs until they reach the top. Secondly, the fact that you don't speak Mandarin and consider all state press to be propaganda rags does not mean that the CPC doesn't showcase transparency to its own citizens in the PRC.

Thirdly, it is a chauvanistic point of view to claim that the PRC doesn't "emancipate its own citizens" so they can "form critical opinions," frankly. This is a sinophobic point of view that claims a country of billions can't think for themselves.

Finally, the claim that "those in power have the tools to keep themselves in power" is utterly unsubstantiated. You're conjuring a view of China that isn't based on any material claims.

Listen, I'm sure you're trying to answer in good-faith, but it's clear that you're entirely unfamiliar with how the PRC works and funtions on a day to day basis. It is entirely okay to admit to not knowing much about it, taking a break from the keyboard, and reading up on concepts like Whole Process People's Democracy. I think it would benefit you greatly.

I know you're an Anarchist, but Mao has fantastic advice for this kind of subject matter:

Unless you have investigated a problem, you will be deprived of the right to speak on it. Isn't that too harsh? Not in the least. When you have not probed into a problem, into the present facts and its past history, and know nothing of its essentials, whatever you say about it will undoubtedly be nonsense. Talking nonsense solves no problems, as everyone knows, so why is it unjust to deprive you of the right to speak? Quite a few comrades always keep their eyes shut and talk nonsense, and for a Communist that is disgraceful. How can a Communist keep his eyes shut and talk nonsense?

It won't do!

It won't do!

You must investigate!

You must not talk nonsense!

Oppose Book Worship

I also recommend my introductory Marxism-Leninism reading list, and am happy to answer any questions you might have.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

Okay fine if I have time tmrw I'll do some extra reading on WPPD. Got a good resource?

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago* (2 children)

Here's an infographic showing the "bottom-up-top-down" structure of the CPC

Here's a decent video going over Whole Process People's Democracy.

Here's an infographic showing the makeup of government.

And you can always ask questions.

The CPC is supported from the bottom-up, all power at the top flows from the bottom, but policy is implemented top-down. The power invested in the top comes from below.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

cheers, I'll take a look at these but also look for non government-sponsored sources

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 4 points 2 years ago

I don't think whether or not the legal structure of the political system is government funded or not makes a difference, it's literally how it exists. You can take out the positive spin and the underlying facts are the same, depending on "non-government source" you're going to run into US-sponsored propaganda (the US approved billions in spreading anti-PRC propaganda by the way).

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago (1 child)

90% support makes the whole thing more suspicious to me than anything.

True democracy is when a president has a 37% approval rating.

Alright I'm just joshing with you, but since you're an anarchist you do agree with me on the following, right?

The Western hegemony is dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. It suppresses voices that dissent from neoliberal dogmas and the military brinkmanship of NATO. It often violently clamps down grassroots movements like BLM or the Free Palestine protests. The Western parliaments consist of different flavours of neoliberalism, neoconservatism and fascism, and not a real representation of an actual "marketplace of ideas", just a theatre of so-called politics.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 3 points 2 years ago

True democracy is when a president has a 37% approval rating.

unironically funny lmao.

Yes I do agree with you.

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[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

Widespread public support for a government is alien to the mind of the liberal

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 1 point 2 years ago

I think I haven't made myself clear, I don't think the number is made up.

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[–] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 2 years ago

If the evidence shows few people support the government, you believe it; if the evidence shows many people support the government, that itself is evidence of government threatening its people. This is an unfalsifiable position; you've just decided you don't like the government no matter what the evidence says.

The 90% figure is also from the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. Do you think they had the wool pulled over their eyes?

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[–] m532@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 2 years ago*

90% support makes the whole thing more suspicious to me than anything.

So you don't want democracy?

What do you want then?

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago* (6 children)

acting like it's a fucking utopia.

I don't appreciate the strawmen.

brow

China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil.

Wait what? You'd prefer to Balkanize China into a several million anarchist direct democracy communes? Or what? How would that work in 2024?

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -2 points 2 years ago (5 children)

You're implying that I'm the one setting up a strawman by claiming that people are acting a certain way. This is from my personal experience. I'm not accusing you or everyone here of being a tankie but it seems like everybody here identifies as one. Maybe we have a different definition of the word. I was trying to clarify my definition.

You’d prefer to Balkanize China into a several million anarchist direct democracy communes? Or what? How would that work in 2024?

No, and I don't think any smart anarchist is advocating for some crazy revolution involving a coup or whatever. I advocate for building strong local communities, that are heavily interconnected. "Communes" as such are kind of impossible since most people live in cities anyway. We need to build resilient networks that can slowly replace oppressive centralized power. Personally I also don't subscribe to only 100% anarchism, my ideology is also influenced by socialism, syndicalism and marxism.

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 6 points 2 years ago (4 children)

We need to build resilient networks that can slowly replace oppressive centralized power.

hmm, maybe a truly massive party with many cadres around the country? perhaps? maybe?

I advocate for building strong local communities, that are heavily interconnected.

Are you 100% sure there's nothing like this in China?

so how to do this neat leftcom kind of stuff, without some kind of centralization, when also you simultaneously need to

modernize your country, literally everything from agriculture, to healthcare and heavy industry and so on
defend yourself from antagonistic countries
defend yourself from giant multinational corpos who'd jump at the chance to plunder your resources
defend yourself from fascist/monarchist elements inside your country

I mean in actual practice in a real historical scenario?

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 0 points 2 years ago (3 children)

This debate went way off the rails, but maybe tell me about how you think things should go. For example what would be a way for the US to transition to communism.

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Nah, I give up at this point and Xi only paid me for this long, my shift is over.
Read Parenti and others.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 years ago

Alright, well thanks for engaging with me I know I was ruffling feathers.

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[–] m532@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 2 years ago

For usa to transition to communism we first need to strike them with missiles until their whole military & propaganda apparatus is completely destroyed

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[–] MaeBorowski@hexbear.net 13 points 2 years ago (17 children)

China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil.

Funny how 95% of the Chinese population approves of and rates favorably this terrible "ruling over" they are being subjected to.

New theory just dropped, everyone: The more people a government represents, the more evil that government is.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -5 points 2 years ago (16 children)

New theory just dropped, everyone: The more people a government represents, the more evil that government is.

lmao. I unironically believe this though. The more you concentrate power, the harder it is to keep bad actors from abusing said power.

Funny how 95% of the Chinese population approves of and rates favorably this terrible “ruling over” they are being subjected to.

Most Americans approve of capitalism. Does that make it good too?

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[–] MaeBorowski@hexbear.net 11 points 2 years ago (11 children)

lmao. I unironically believe this though.

picard

The more you concentrate power, the harder it is to keep bad actors from abusing said power.

What makes you think the power over those billion+ people is all "concentrated"? Could it be (gasp!) that the power is largely distributed among those people who overwhelmingly support that government? This is just capitalist-realism-brained misunderstanding of how communist parties work.

Most Americans approve of capitalism. Does that make it good too?

No, but that's certainly not what makes it bad.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -3 points 2 years ago (10 children)

Could it be (gasp!) that the power is largely distributed among those people who overwhelmingly support that government?

Democracy doesn't work when it's top-down. In the West, the capitalist and ruling class is capable of exerting control on public opinion and therefore on elections. The same is true of the CCP, which can influence public opinion as well. The best way to combat this is by emancipating individuals so they are able to resist state propaganda. China has a dogshit score on the press freedom index, so good luck educating the people on the shortcomings of the government. The government is intransparent and oppressive by design.

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago (2 children)

the press freedom index

Oh not the Burger Institute Freedom Fries Index?!?!

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

It's maintained by Reporters without Borders and is not US affiliated

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 9 points 2 years ago

It's maintained by Reporters without Borders and is not US affiliated

literally a 10 second search

An anarchist like yourself, how much do you trust a Non-Governmental Organizations that is 52% funded by Western states and the rest comes from big corporations or similar fake non-state-actors?

They literally list the National Endowment for Democracy as a main partner!

(I'll help, the NED is the soft power branch of the CIA)

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 years ago (6 children)

Can you explain how Whole Process People's Democracy is "top-down?" Further, can you explain why it's a good thing for Capitalists to control the press, and not the public? The inverse of public press is private press, and that means ownership by Capitalists and liberals. Surely it's better for the people to control the press, and not the bourgeoisie?

Further, can you explain how the government is "intransparent and oppressive by design?" Just because you don't speak mandarin doesn't mean the process is mystified and opaque for those who live in and contribute to said system.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 2 years ago (5 children)

Can you explain how Whole Process People’s Democracy is “top-down?”

Can you explain to me how it's not?

Further, can you explain why it’s a good thing for Capitalists to control the press, and not the public?

No, because it's not. Nice strawman. Is this public you speak of the government?

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (4 children)

You made the claim that the PRC is run from a top-down manner. If you can't substantiate claims you make, then don't make them.

Secondly, if the press is not publicly owned, then it becomes privately owned, and as such is subject to effortless bourgeois domination. You are trying to have your cake and eat it too in order to play the endless contrarion.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -3 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Again you construe publicly owned and government-owned

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I do not misconstrue anything, here. Public property is accomplished from within the ownership of government, a news organization being a worker coop doesn't mean it is immune to bourgeois influence.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

true, and a government being elected also doesn't make it immune to bourgeois influence, and especially not to influence from the politicians themselves

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 2 years ago

Correct, which is why you need to understand that the class in power in the PRC is the proletariat and the party structure gains its legitimacy and power from the bottom-up.

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[–] Kieselguhr@hexbear.net 10 points 2 years ago (3 children)

Most Americans approve of capitalism. Does that make it good too?

because "capitalism" and "communism" are loaded words

consider this though:

A year before the presidential election, three-quarters of Americans (76%) believe the country is headed in the wrong direction and the leading Democratic and Republican candidates are viewed broadly unfavorably, according to a new ABC News/Ipsos poll. Only 23% of Americans think the country is headed in the right direction.

When asked whether things in their country are heading in the right direction, or are they off on the wrong track, 90 percent of the respondents from China taking part in this Ipsos survey said they were heading in the right direction.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I don't see what the approval rates of these two countries have to do with anything here. In terms of the economy and infrastructure, China is indeed moving in the right direction. That doesn't mean I think China is a force of good in the world. It's a nation state and should be subject to criticism. And all I'm saying is that there are people who will religiously dogpile you if you try to do that, and I call those people tankies.

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[–] MaeBorowski@hexbear.net 9 points 2 years ago (1 child)

China is indeed moving in the right direction. That doesn't mean I think China is a force of good in the world.

Then what would? If the fact that China is doing good in the world is not enough for you to think "it a force for good in the world" then what does it need to do? Oh, I forgot, you think "all nation states are bad by definition" and unironically believe that the more people a government represents, the more evil it is. So in order for China to be "a force for good in the world" China simply has to cease to exist. Got it. Nope, that doesn't align with US interests at all. picard-troll

It's a nation state and should be subject to criticism. And all I'm saying is that there are people who will religiously dogpile you if you try to do that, and I call those people tankies.

Literally no one on lemmy has ever said China is above criticism. I dare you to find a single instance of that ever happening.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 2 years ago

Literally no one on lemmy has ever said China is above criticism. I dare you to find a single instance of that ever happening.

That's not quite what I mean, I think we got sidetracked. I'll give you an example:

https://lemmy.ml/post/21941058

This guy posts the worst propaganda article I've ever read, and gets downvoted to oblivion. Take a look and tell me that reading it doesn't feel like wormtongue himself is whispering into your ear. The issue being lamented in the article is real, and I made clear in my first comment that I agree, but the OP goes off, assumes that I don't like the article because a Russian wrote it, calls me a liberal, puts up 100 strawmen without engaging any of my arguments, and then accuses me of not engaging their (nonexistent) arguments. I wasn't even disagreeing with the article just the way it's written lmao

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[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 11 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Funny, I was just telling @Cowbee about how the tankies I see on here are insufferable & impossible to converse with.

I would say the people here are being very patient with you, as you are spreading xenophobic views out of ignorance and recycled imperialist think tank talking points while also being condescending. You don't get pushback on that by liberals because they agree with you but anyone on the left would be embarrassed to be associated with it.

The appropriate response for someone not generously giving you their time would be to call you, among other things, a liberal and then go on with their day.

But I'll bite. First of all, I don't appreciate the strawmen. I'm not saying that there is a lot of tankies, nor that they are here now suddenly

Liberals suddenly learned the word tankie. Why do you think that is? Rather than a straw man, I understood this as a fact we could all accept.

I'm just saying that I, myself, in my own experience, have seen people shilling for China or even Russia, acting like it's a fucking utopia.

What tankies have you seen that treat Russia like a utopia? What tankies have you seen that treat China like a utopia? I think you are just revealing your owm straw men, and all you have seen is people appreciating asoects of either country. And by the magic of chauvinism, any praise for any aspect of "the enemy" is an uncritical endorsement. Liberals going down this path will often throw in some homophobic ibsults about Putin or Xi.

Russia an oligarchy, just with a different structure than most Western countries.

Russia is capitalist. It is only called an oligarchy because Westerners are racist towards them and need different words for the same thing when the Slavic brainpan does it. This is you uncritically absorbing that racism. They control our thoughts through language, framings, and what is discussed vs. not discussed.

China is a government that rules over billions of people. That is, by definition, evil.

It obviously is not.

No amount of America Bad makes China or Russia good.

America Bad both describes the position of the US as the globsl seat of capital and imperislist power and is intended to get people like yourself to have sone persoective, as you are deeply propagandized towards America-centrism.

In terms of propaganda sources, for example just take a look at Russia Today.

RT is, generally speaking, more reliable that the NYT. So what of it?

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

Again apologies for skimming, you are writing a lot.

I would say the people here are being very patient with you

I agree

Russia is capitalist. It is only called an oligarchy because

You misunderstood me. I'm saying that the US is an oligarchy as well.

you are spreading xenophobic views out of ignorance and recycled imperialist think tank talking points while also being condescending

the first part is your opinion, and the second part is not true. I'm not being condescending, and I'm being equally patient replying to people who are just trolling

RT is, generally speaking, more reliable that the NYT

If you have to compare RT to the NYT, that says more than enough

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[–] TheOubliette@lemmy.ml 5 points 2 years ago

You misunderstood me. I’m saying that the US is an oligarchy as well.

Every capitalist country is an oligarchy. The term is used selectively for Russia, and you have specifically focused on its use re: Russia in this discussion.

the first part is your opinion

My correct opinion. Do you believe you are the first baby leftist I've come across that harbors these kinds of views? I am always part of the political education group in any org I am in. We have to root people out who are very confident in their chauvinism and isolate them from the others in some way, as they are very disruptive on top of being wrong. This is also why various baby-leftist-only spaces are so completely useless, they spend their time chasing phantoms and fighting people that do good work. This is also why the feds have historically supported Trotskyists and certain anarchist formations.

and the second part is not true.

It is true, I know where these claims come from. I recognize them.

I’m not being condescending, and I’m being equally patient replying to people who are just trolling

You are repeatedly broad-brushing "tankies" with bullshit and placing yourself in a position to argue with others despite clearly not doing the work of learning about the topic first. A cool guy once said, "no investigation, no right to speak".

If you have to compare RT to the NYT, that says more than enough

I don't know what that means.

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[–] ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net 7 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

In terms of propaganda sources, for example just take a look at Russia Today.

You think Russia Today accounts for the massive worldwide upswell in communist and anti-imperialist sentiment over the last few years i-cant

My guy, you clearly just listed the first Russian news outlet you could think of. In the very last sentence too, after like a paragraph of tangential whining, as if anybody asked. It's such a transparent attempt to bait my attention away from your inability to defend your dumbass theory, and then you top it off with "uhh anyway, millions of people around the world suddenly got hooked on Russia Today." Deeply unserious. I assume you can pull up google trends and verify this massive spike in readership, right?

Yeah man, it's not the warmongering, the lies, the genocide, the complete capitalist destruction of any social fabric, hope for the future, international peace or survivable environment. It's just the sinister Chinese and die Russich swine working to sow dissent among us freedom loving people.

You are a dipshit, a liberal, and a useful idiot for fascism, but I repeat myself. One thing you are currently not is any kind of leftist.

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[–] PotatoesFall@discuss.tchncs.de -1 points 2 years ago

You think Russia Today accounts for the massive worldwide upswell in communist and anti-imperialist sentiment over the last few years

No? When did I say that? You seem to think I'm calling everybody here a tankie (or my definition thereof). I'm not.

as if anybody asked.

I was literally asked

Yeah man, it’s not the warmongering, the lies, the genocide, the complete capitalist destruction of any social fabric, hope for the future, international peace or survivable environment. It’s just the sinister Chinese and die Russich swine working to sow dissent among us

Jesus Christ I cannot make this any more clear, I am not saying that China or Russia are the top threats and that we need to save liberal democracy lmao. I criticize China, you immediately assume that I'm a liberal and your enemy. You argue in bad faith, pellet me with strawmen and make 100 assumptions about what you think my opinions are. Which is exactly the kind of behavior I'm talking about.

At least most of the other people replying to my comment were interesting to speak to and argued in good faith. I might learn something from them. I won't learn anything from you and you aren't interested in learning anything from me.

You have proven my point :)

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[–] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 2 years ago

Funny, I was just telling @Cowbee about how the tankies I see on here are insufferable & impossible to converse with.

You don't see how writing shit like this is insufferable and impossible to converse with?

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