this post was submitted on 08 Sep 2024
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Data is Beautiful
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No. There is nothing to imply that the 42 people didn't have a gun, just that they didn't shoot the attacker. That part seems fishy.
Oh yeah, I'm sure any of these cases were someone stopping to hold an active shooter at gunpoint and that somehow working out for them. Or maybe they used their gun as a melee weapon. Or maybe the attackers were subdued by being talked down over their common love of guns. Or maybe the active shooter ran out of ammo and came up to the good guy with a gun to get some more, at which point the good guy revealed they were actually tricking them into lowering their guard and put them into a headlock. Or maybe some other far-fetched bullshit that'll let me equivocate over the fact that "good guys with guns" don't do shit in the grand scheme of things.
Jeez, that's a lot of words you needed to make a clown out of yourself, just because you are pissed by objective fact.
I think you're pissed at the objective fact that 12/433 is fucking nothing and your "good guy with a gun" argument is a pathetic farce, so you're trying muddy the waters by shifting the argument to a ridiculous, unfounded, unfalsifiable notion that any of the 42 subduers might've had literally anything to do with "good guys" having firearms.
There is nothing in what I said that would imply what side of "good guy with a gun" argument I am on and there is nothing in the data that says anything about whether the 42 people had a gun.
My point is this is terrible and confusing representation of the data, as is often the case in any "data is beautiful" community.
But keep kicking around mad that the version that supports your narrative is not the only possible one :D
Yeah, so terrible and confusing that they didn't mention guns in branches that don't have anything to do with guns outside of a gun fetishist's fanfiction.
So, I can imagine someone with a gun menacing the attacker at gunpoint and forcing them to surrender. No shots fired.
But the data doesn't include this for bystanders. Maybe that's because it doesn't happen in real life, or maybe they muddied the watters. We can't know because we can't see the data they used to make this graphic.
For practical purposes imagine yourself in a public area with the gunman actively shooting people with an AR-15, to the left of you a guys head is turned to mush, down the way someone takes a hit to a limb leaving their arm dangling in an unnatural way. All around you are dead and dying you ignore the pistol in your pocket and run at him screaming "I'm going to take you down brudder".
The people who subdued people without shooting them probably didn't have a gun.
Not all shooters are blindly suicidal. They can be menaced with a gun and told to surrender. Yeah, in some situations it won't work, but in some situations it will.
42 incidents. Not even one of them used a gun to force a surrender? Hard to believe.
It's incredibly easy to believe. Many people own guns most of them don't go around armed literally all the time. Fewer yet are going to get in a gun fight to the death with a shooter who is actively killing people all around them. Of those willing to do so basically anyone with even half a brain is going to take the shot. By the time you have yelled "drop the" they have enough time to bring the gun to bear on you. It makes more sense to execute you than comply.
What you are describing is a movie fantasy.
42 people choosing to risk their lives while unarmed is also pretty hard to believe.
Also, your claim that surrender is a fantasy contradicts the fact that a bunch of shootings ended in surrender to the police. I think that strongly implies a bystander with a gun could achieve a similar result.
Basically you doubt... reality and want to somehow assign credit for guns you hallucinated exist even when people used their feet and fists. Face it random joe with a gun saving the day during a mass shooting is so rare as to be non-existent. Good guys with guns are basically worthless in such misadventures.
If we look at home use is even dumber. Having a gun in the average house increases your chance of death.
What I doubt is that, of 42 people who stopped a shooter, literally zero of them used a gun to nonviolently deescelate. Zero? That's definitely possible, I'm not arguing against that. What I'm saying is, because the data isn't organized well, it's unclear. It only says that they subdued the attacker without shooting. That does not indicate that they didn't have a gun.
Sometimes, rarely, you can stop a bad guy with a gun by just pointing a gun at him.
I think you don't understand how few people have a gun at their hip at any given time despite how many having one at home.
Well it looks like at least 22 people definitely had a gun, or 33% of shooters that were subdued by a bystander were shot.
But not even one of them used a gun to force a surrender without firing? Possible! Unlikely.
Branch that doesn't involve shooting the attacker.
Keep trying. You will not get there, but at least you tried.
Thank you for standing up to the slavering morons around here about bad statistical graphics.
All I'm getting out of this is that police are, in fact less than 50% effective, so we'd better plan on dealing with it ourselves.
They could have also talked them out of it, which still takes balls
True, they didn't specify whether in that 42 cases the citizen does have a gun but did not fire, just aiming and intimidate. However the data did split between ~~shot fired~~ shot at the attacker(no mention hit or miss) vs subdued, not killed vs subdued, and also there's a mention of the attacker surrender, so i assume "subdued" mean the attacker did not surrender but forced to give up whatever they're doing.
The chance that someone decided to go hand to hand with a gunman in the middle of blowing away the population whilst leaving their gun holstered is basically zero.
Not what I said or implied, but no, that chance is not basically zero.
I recall reading like a gunman got tackled last year. If I get time I'll dig it up
I think you missed the point. People sometimes DO manhandle the shooter. They don't do so whilst having the option of blowing away the shooter.