this post was submitted on 27 May 2024
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Dude, you are changing the argument again, as usual.
I got it. Yes, scam website exist. Yes, scan shop websites exist, as exist phishing banking sites, and a universe of things.
You said:
This is complete bullshit.
Pirating a game only means copying the look of a legitimate game served on "real" casinos. There is nothing to hack, because you don't have the codebase. Netent, playtech, evolution, microgaming, they all serve their games via iframes or similar, they integrate with you via API, they whitelist your IPs or authenticate yourself with a token. Scam casinos might simply look at real games and imitate them, exactly like you might do a fake shop and copy - say - Amazon's look.
And for the 100th times, this is a negligible problem if you are playing on licensed websites, which in turn used licensed gaming providers.
You are conflating arguments that apply to scam website as if these apply to the wider industry, they don't! If you are talking about banking, you wouldn't say "banks steal your data", because there are scammers that use bank websites to phish people. They are a completely different thing. So, as clear as it can be:
I can't be clearer than this.
I linked to an external source showing it is not bullshit.
Your arguments for online casinos not being scams are based solely on excluding scams from your definition of online casinos.
Your source didn't confirm in any way what you said. Making lookalikes have nothing to do with "hacking small parts of the codebase".
Also the source itself is a random website lol
My argument is that casinos don't need to scam by rigging games. A scam site is no more a casino than a phishing site is a banking site. Do you think banking sites are scams?
Your initial statement was a blanket statement about casinos "rigging games" and "helping laundering money for a cut". Now you are defending the hill that some scammers use casinos as their vector for scams, which is a completely different thing, that nobody questioned also. It simply has nothing to do with " casinos".
But I see you are one of those people who are clinically incapable of admitting you said something incorrect, even after you said tons of incorrect stuff and you showed to have a very superficial understanding of the gambling industry (my favorite was when you called games "dressed up RNGs, when they are required to be RNG by law, and you really want them to be...).
And this opinion is incorrect. I would accept that some online casinos don't need to scam by rigging games.
Incorrect. I've posted multiple examples of online casino scams, including rigging the games.
Some are.
Look at the top of this thread. The question was "Why are online casinos bad".
No, it's not. I discussed and explained already to you that there are several reasons:
You instead provided 0 explanation about what you are claiming.
You didn't post any example. You posted statements that mentioned that some website can spoof casinos with rigged games. Those are not casino websites, they hold no licenses and they are not established businesses. They are not part of an industry, exactly like scam banking website are not part of the financial industry.
False, again. They are not banking sites lol. No bank would phish their users. There are scammers who impersonate banks, exactly like they impersonate casinos. Your whole argument relies on calling scammers that do X part of the X industry. They are not.
And your answer in fact is completely incorrect. Rather than admitting that you have 0 proof or arguments that casinos rig games and enable laundering money, you are now relying purely on a definition of casinos that include the casino scam sites.
I will repeat, your argument is exactly as absurd as the following:
Then, when confronted about this, you would provide https://getcomputeractive.co.uk/protect-your-tech/fake-bank-website-URLs which says:
thinking it is proof. It's not.
As I said, you clearly have no idea about the industry, you said so many things that show it and then glanced over them to avoid embarrassment, and you ended up moving the goalpost so far, that now your entire stance relies on the fact that scam casino websites are online casinos. The initial question "why are online casinos bad" clearly referred to businesses which...run online casinos. And 100% your initial answer referred to that too, but once you couldn't support your argument in any way, you retreated purely onto the scam websites that impersonate casinos.
Is it so hard for you to admit that you made a big statement about something you are not fully knowledgeable?
See links above why scamming and online casinos are linked.
You are not approaching this from a user perspective
If it looks like a banking site, then it is banking site.
If it looks like an online casino then they are an online casino.
Incorrect.
Ok, I see you are now fully entrenched on your position, with absolutely no ability to defend it. You are hanging onto that random site that says that yes - fake casinos exist, for your dear life.
ahahaha, yes, a scammer creating a fake banking site from a scammed person perspective is doing a banking site. But here we are discussing about banks (or casinos) so you realize this argument is completely irrelevant, right?
Finally we reached the core flaw in your argument! If we are talking about banking sites, and - say - we discuss the security measures needed on them, nobody would think to include phishing sites into the discussion, because it's meaningless. The question you answered to was about online casinos, and was obviously referring to the businesses which run online casinos, not "any site which looks as an online casinos from an aesthetic point of view", because this is a completely dumb way to characterize stuff. There is a scam in which someone "sells" a box for something (say, a camera), and then you open it and there is a rock. Your argument is basically like saying "cameras suck, some don't even do pictures", because you consider those rocks cameras, since they were in camera boxes and sold as such.
I am 99% sure you actually don't believe your own argument, and you are just doubling and tripling down on it because admitting to be wrong on the internet is basically impossible.
Oh yeah?
OP was clearly talking about actual gambling businesses. They were trying to ask an opinion about why people consider gambling bad, in relation to the agency of people to play (or not play) on them.
Now you are trying to bullshit your way through, pretending that your answer was related to scam websites, and not actual casinos. Let's remember your first answer:
You specifically talk about the gambling industry. Once again, if you really want to base your whole argument on the fact that scam websites belong to the industry they spoof, then feel free to embarrass yourself. It's clear to anybody what you meant in your first comment, but you couldn't defend it (because it's bullshit), and now you are trying to get away with a rhetorical argument that is even worse. Really dude, we all said shit on the internet, admit you just said some stereotypical bullcrap and move on with your life :)
Incorrect. Learn to recognize 'spoofing' and 'phishing'
Incorrect
Incorrect. OP clearly wrote "online casinos".
You clearly have a guilty conscious about the money you earned from gamblers. Or you are being paid for this shilling.
The problem with online casinos is that they are associated with a huge number of scams.
Jesus.... Let me spell it out even more clearly: if someone is creating a new standard for banking sites, they don't expect those goddamn measures to apply to phishing websites, because they are not considered part of the industry. Nobody discussing the banking industry would consider phishing sites PART OF it. it's relevant to discussing phishin FOR the industry, but it's not a problem OF banking sites. Because "banking site" means inherently a legitimate banking site.
And online casinos don't include fake online casinos.
But ok, let's clarify once and for all.
Let's pretend you actually believe your bs, and let's make a distinction:
To which ones do you think your initial answer applies:
?
Do you think that online casinos as defined above run rigged games? Do you think they help laundering money?
At least I will give you an out and you don't need to keep climbing mirrors.
No, I simply don't like bullshit, and your arguments are full of it. I strongly dislike the gambling industry, but for reasons based on facts, not on what I heard in the beauty salon :) In fact, my whole point is that there are good, solid reasons to dislike gambling and online casinos. The bullshit you quoted is not part of it because it's false.
Not part of the discussion. You are straining pretty hard in your efforts to "win".
Yes, they do. The clue is in the name.
I am making an example to prove a point. The point is simple "industry" doesn't contain the scammers who try to abuse it.
Genius take!
Answer the question, though. I repost it for your own convenience. We clear out all the bullshit semantic you brought up, and go straight to the point:
Let’s pretend you actually believe your bs, and let’s make a distinction:
To which ones do you think your initial answer applies:
?
It does. To illustrate this I linked to a bank website containing advice on combating phishing.
Here's the definition I'm happy with.
Legitimate casinos = established businesses in the casino industry
Fake casinos = scammers
Online casinos = legitimate casinos + fake casinos
Combined because users find it hard to tell the difference.
Answer the question, your definition doesn't add much.
To which ones does your initial answer apply? Both legitimate and fake casinos?
It's not a hard question.
P.s. I bet you wouldn't be able to show me a fake casino if I asked. That's because they are not a common problem. You are overinflating it to make your absurd definition more reasonable. But let's not get into this...
Online casinos.
https://www.askgamblers.com/online-casinos/blacklisted
So both legitimate and fake? In other words you believe that both legitimate and fake casinos rig games, both help laundering money and both fight against regulations?
It's a simple question, show a tiny bit of good faith :)
P.s., have you read your own link?
The blacklisting reasons have to do with scammy customer support, lack of license, stealing money. They don't even mention rigging games or laundering money, which is what you claimed :)
Your definition of "legitimate casino" excludes any casinos that rig games.
All businesses with financial operations are exposed to money laundering to some degree.
Regulations increase costs to implement. Only "legitimate casinos" fight them.
It's YOUR definition ahahah I literally took what you said and I am asking a question.
YOU said, legitimate + fake = online. I asked to which you applied the answer and you said online. Now you are saying it doesn't?
So, do we agree that legitimate casinos don't rig games?
Also, you mentioned taking a cut to help laundering money, now you are retracting saying "are exposed". No dude, taking a cut has intentionality behind, being exposed is a natural risk for any business which moves money. You claimed the first.
So, one last time:
Nope. It's you who is obsessed with separation of "legitimate casinos".
Correct
Incorrect.
You have defined legitimate casinos as ones that don't rig games.
Incorrect. I said casinos are used to launder money.
No retraction necessary.
Online casinos rig games. You have defined legitimate casinos as ones that don't rig games. A normal internet user cannot tell the difference.
Yes. Not necessarily knowingly. Income from internet gambling is tainted.
Your quote:
You forgot already? A link to your own comment.
I didn't define shit, you defined legitimate casino as a partition of online casino.
Look what triple jump you are making to avoid saying a very simple thing: legitimate casinos, defined as YOU did (established businesses in the casino industry) don't rig games. All because you can't admit to be wrong :)
So, I will ask once again:
Yes or no question.
I would argue with this point, but I won't. It doesn't matter, I accept the theoretical possibility of money laundering. For some reason I was mistakenly taking the top comment of this thread as your comment. I even quoted it several times and you didn't note that that's not your comment... my bad.
Here is your definition (not mine) where you separate "legitimate businesses" from "scam organizations"
So when I talk about online casinos, I refer to the legitimate businesses that are gambling businesses, not scam organizations that happen to use gambling as their cover
I'm saying this line is not clear cut, particularly for the average Internet user. A yes/no answer is not possible.
Easily done. Thanks for clarifying.
Yes, but I am asking to answer according to your own definition! I specified it, I quotes it, I wrote YOUR in caps, I can't add flashing lights or I would.
You provided a definition, I am asking a simple question with that definition in mind.
According to YOUR definition, do legitimate casinos rig games?
Come on, how many more comments do you need to answer this simple query?
Online casinos rig games.
From the end user point of view, the subset of legitimate casinos (that, following your definition, don't rig or scam) cannot be easily identified.
I give up. You refuse to engage in good faith.
What user can tell is irrelevant, we are talking about your "taxonomy" and the properties that carries being in one or other category.
You might not be able to distinguish a legitimate casinos by a fake one, but if in your opinion legitimate ones also rig games, this is irrelevant. If they don't, then what users can tell is a completely separate problem.
No. That's what you are trying to forum slide to.
I'm sticking to the point that online casinos are scammy, including legitimate, regulated operators.
Not just me. Any average Joe.
Your doggedness for wanting agreement that some casino games may not be rigged is impressive
But a problem very much related to "what's wrong with online casinos".
Indeed I want to make a distinction. Because thinking legitimate casinos rig games is completely different from thinking scammy ones do.
In fact, you had no argument whatsoever to prove those do, including your external sources that recommended basically in all cases to stick to licensed sites, proving that there is a difference (duh). On the other hand, having worked in the industry and understanding both how casinos integrate games and how compliance works, I have explained to you why there are generally not technical means AND no economic incentive for legitimate casinos to rig games.
I will repeat the points for you:
The above applies to essentially every licensed casino, every legitimate casino.
You failed to acknowledge any of these points, and you argued for 15 comments about scammy websites, bringing now the conversation back to where we started.
The reason why I want an agreement that legitimate (not some!) casinos don't rig games is specifically because I provided arguments (technical and economical) for why that's the case. So your refusal to make any distinction while also refusing to provide any proof to support your claim just results in a vague and messy discussion, exactly like your insane definition of "online casinos" that includes scam websites. You refuse to be accurate :)
It's not. It's something casinos (real ones) can't do anything about, the same way banks or shops can't do anything about. This is an extremely tiny problem because official means exist to recognize legitimate ones since there are trusted authorities that certify them. In fact, given the existence of central national authorities it is much easy to be sure that a casino is legitimate than a shop, for example. I will tell you more: rigged games (and therefore fake casinos) are a MINOR problem in the industry in general. It is absolutely a terrible argument to say what's wrong with casinos, because it's something the vast majority of the people will never even encounter in a life of gambling. However, there are plenty of reasons why casinos can be considered bad based on the regular operations of legitimate casinos, not based on your fairytales.
So yes, I am stuck on wanting an acknowledgement that legitimate casinos don't rig games because I know how that works, unlike you. Here is how I conclude this conversation, since we are at a moot point:
If you fail to acknowledge tha rigging games is very very unlikely (I will keep the theoretical possibility in case there are suicidal CEOs) in legitimate casinos, then I will call your argument bullshit until you have any proof. Specifically, you should explain what economic incentive do legitimate casinos (licensed) to rig games, and how do you think they can do that. If you fail to provide any argument in support of this while also refusing to make a distinction in your original claim, then I know you are arguing in bad faith, so I will simply block you and move on.
You have defined legitimate casinos as only ones that don't rig games or do scams. A priori you are correct.
There are enough illegitimate online casinos to create a problem for the whole industry.
Online casinos = scam
They don't have enough users so they need to squeeze their regular punters harder.
Even your beloved "legitimate" casinos do "rig" games by offering different odds at different times to different people. They scam people by restricting the amount that can be withdrawn (and other ToS tricks). They create user interfaces to maximise player losses.
I am in no way using this definition right now, I am using the definition you provided (established businesses) and I generally use it interchangeably with "licensed", because to operate you need at least a license.
So it's not a tautology.
Incorrect. Also creating a problem for is not defining the industry itself. There are phishing bank sites to create a problem for the banking industry, but only an idiot would answer "they steal your identity/card details" to the question "why are online banks bad".
Incorrect. You forgot to address "how". I will also add another item to the "you have no idea what you are talking about". Players losing is a sure way to lose even more customers. In fact if you knew something about the industry you would know that new companies operate on much lower margins that established ones. Bet365 might operate on a 7-9% margin, a new company operates on 1,2,3%. The idea that squeezing more existing customers, besides being technically impossible, is absurd. It's a huge business risk (you lose your license and then you will have 0 customers).
First, I don't like casinos, despite having worked for one, I have played on less sites than you did. I like even less bullshit though, hence my pleasure in clearing the world from yours. Second, that is not rigging at all. You know it, I know it, it is absolutely not what you meant, and I am embarrassed for you for trying to use this terrible rethorical trick to now bend the word rigging. Rigging means that you expect the odds to win are X but instead behind the scene are Y (<X). Offering odds first of all is not a casino thing, it's a sportsbook thing, and second of all is transparent to the user. Finally, odds obviously change over time, as estimated probability does...
Listen, you are just a guy on the internet with a big mouth and a family supply of bad faith. I showed you multiple times that your claim are bullshit and that much smarter people than you took care of the problems you claim affect casinos (rigged games and money laundering).
You failed to provide any argument from any of your claims and now you proved to argue in bad faith. As promised, I will make you a favour and block you, so you don't have to keep embarrassing yourself. Take this as a chance to reflect on maybe not arguing on something you don't understand fully, and maybe to learn from someone who knows more than you, as I try to do in the many occasions where I make mistakes or know little about something. Your claim at the moment is false. It's a conspiracy theory that you repeat and might believe, but it's false. Deal with it. You can use the very real and many reasons to consider casinos bad, do that.
Blocking someone is the Lemmy equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "la la la I can't hear you".
But if this civil discussion has led you to that point then maybe we should let the topic lie and get on with our lives.