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Linux Inventor Says He Doesn’t Believe in Crypto (u.today)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/technology@lemmy.world
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  • Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, does not believe in cryptocurrencies, calling them a vehicle for scams and a Ponzi scheme.
  • Torvalds was once rumored to be Bitcoin creator Satoshi Nakamoto, but he clarified it was a joke and denied owning a Bitcoin fortune.
  • Torvalds also dismissed the idea of technological singularity as a bedtime story for children, saying continuous exponential growth does not make sense.
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[–] 126 points 2 years ago (45 children)

If after 16 years you still have to be asked if you believe in crypto, then chances are that it is a scam.

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  • [–] 36 points 2 years ago (15 children)

    Good point, I always wondered if there is a way the technology will evolve and somehow find a niche that's unexpected. But you're right, 16 years is a long time to be meandering.

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  • [+] -41 points 2 years ago (14 children)

    It's such a first-world thing to not understand all the good that crypto has done. There are countless lives that have been financially saved by having a safe place to hold wealth while their countries' fiat collapsed. It's just a short matter of time until many first world folks understand this as well.

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  • [–] 23 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Sounds like the same shit those rare metal guys are always yapping about but with extra scams...

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  • [+] -31 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Yeah, probably, don't worry about it, it's all a bit complex so probably all just the same thing, who knows. No way to tell really. You'll be fine without digging too deep into this stuff, it's difficult to understand.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    Evading paying taxes is a good thing? Well no.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Paying taxes is one thing, and of course it is necessary. Extra value is extracted by printing more and more money. USD used to be backed by gold, but they took that away. In addition to corrupt governments extracting value by printing more and more currency, counterfeitters also do the same. Bitcoin fixes both of these issues. There is absolutely no reason why Bitcoin and taxes can't coexist.

    Furthermore, with bitcoin we can electronically transfer exactly how much value we want to without having to trust every single vendor with our credit/debit card numbers. Have you ever had to cancel a card because of fraudulent spends? Well, millions of Americans do every year and this also doesn't happen with Bitcoin. You send exactly how much you want to, you don't hand indefinite access to your funds to every single vendor to sell your information or steal from you whenever they want. In the last 2 weeks I've had over $400 stolen from my debit card because of this idiotic system.

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  • [+] -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (3 children)
    [deleted]
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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Yes, because infrastructure, subsidies, education and social spending still need to happen and not paying your taxes will erode those things long before they stop a genocide. If you don't care about getting in trouble with your government, there are more effective things that can be done.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    There was promise for people in Argentina livig under extreme inflation but I never heard it go anywhere.

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  • [+] -6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Look closer, it's saving lives down there.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    I'm from Argentina, if you can pass me some articles I'd love to read them. It's something I've been interested in

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Traditionally clever Argentinians have used USD to escape the collapsing currency, but over the last couple of years, there has been a massive shift to doing this with Bitcoin and some stablecoins. Personally, I would just go for Bitcoin, but I do understand that there is less variance with stablecoins, so they may be a bit more practical for some people. Here is an article that goes into this.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-19/bitcoin-gains-dim-argentines-dollar-refuge-with-276-inflation?embedded-checkout=true

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    On the other hand, scams rarely last 16 years.

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  • [–] 12 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    No clue how long scams usually last, but famous ones easily last multiple decades, though funny how unclear if is when the scam started:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoff_investment_scandal?wprov=sfla1

    Federal investigators believe the fraud in the investment management division and advisory division may have begun in the 1970s. However, Madoff himself stated his fraudulent activities began in the 1990s. Madoff's fraudulent activities are believed to have accelerated after the 2001 change from fractional share trades to decimals on the NYSE, which cut significantly into his legitimate profits as a market-maker.

    Alerted by his sons, federal authorities arrested Madoff on December 11, 2008.

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  • [+] -39 points 2 years ago (22 children)

    For all the reasons that crypto is a scam, every "value" stock - stock which does not now, and never has any intention of ever paying dividends - is also a scam.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 years ago (6 children)

    Behind a value stock is a profitable company. Behind crypto-tokens is a hilariously inefficient database with no application in real life.

    Gamble away your money, I'll take the stock - or "have fun staying poor" like crypto-token morons like to say.

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  • [+] -11 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    Behind a value stock is a profitable company.

    The owner of a privately held company receives those profits. The owner of a value stock does not: the company profits do not transfer to the stockholder. The shares of the company do not entitle the holder to any part of the business. The "value" of those shares are only that other people want them as well.

    Without the possibility of dividends to convey the profits to the shareholders, the profitability of the company is entirely irrelevant. The only "value" of a value stock is its desirability to other people.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    A value stock means it's undervalued compared to its fundamentals or "cheap". It has nothing to do whether or not the company pays dividends.

    The difference to garbage like crypto-tokens is that there actually are fundamentals - a profitable company you're buying a share of and for a cheap price. Of course there's risk involved but you are likely to profit from this.

    Much more likely anyway than any crypto-token gamble because there's no value underneath, only wasted energy; and yes, also with PoS or whatever - it's all inefficient compared to a conventional database behind the firewall of a trustworthy organization. Your trustlessness rethoric is the actual lie behind this huge scam.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

    a profitable company you're buying a share of and for a cheap price.

    A company in which the owner receives nothing from the business operation is not a "profitable" company. Where the shareholders do not receive dividends, and have zero expectation of ever receiving dividends, the business operations of the company are divorced from the value of the share. From the perspective of the shareholder, there are no profits to consider.

    The actual "fundamentals" of such a share is nothing more than the faith that someone else will want to buy that share for more in the future, and the only reason that second person has to buy it in the future is the belief that a third person will buy it later.

    That is exactly the same "fundamentals" as crypto; the same "fundamentals" as a ponzi scheme.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    This is pointless. You don't even seem to know what profit and value are exactly, much less how the letter is increased.

    But ok, gamble away your money for worthless crap if you believe it's the same as owning non-distributing value stock (lol). I'm not an altruistic economics teacher trying to stop you hurting yourself.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    But ok, gamble away your money for worthless crap if you believe it's the same as owning non-distributing value stock (lol).

    I can point to any number of companies whose stock has proven to be worthless crap. It is the same type of gamble for both. Neither have any value arising from business operation. The value of a cryptocoin and the value of a zero-dividend share arise solely and entirely from investor faith.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    But what about all the real valuable assets these companies would have these days? Like the multitude of 5 year old PCs, 1990s era Hermann-Miller office furniture, the buildings and land they lease... /s

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (9 children)

    Its almost like both the stock market and crypto are bullshit, whoduv thunk it?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (8 children)

    It’s almost like money isn’t real.

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  • [–] -4 points 2 years ago (7 children)

    I didnt say that, money is real because its backed by a source be it government or otherwise. Having a currency has a rather obvious use case, having a liquid form of exchange to represent wealth is useful and eases things. Hell it doesnt even have to be paper or metal, it could be bullets, bottlecaps, seashells, or be rocks.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (6 children)

    Money is real in exactly the same way that zero-dividend shares are real, or that cryptocurrency is real.

    The difference is that the government can freely adjust the value of money, and anyone can create shares. Cryptocurrency can only be generated per the conditions of an algorithm.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (5 children)

    Yes but also no, what im trying to say is that currency is in and of itself real. Real currencies are backed by something be it metals, food, water, military, or the entire fucking economy of a region or nation. Cryptocurrency is only backed by hopes dreams and energy wasting mathematical formulas, also I can use a 20 dollar bill practically anywhere in exchange for goods I cant use a crypto wallet or some shit in many places.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    There are plenty of places I can take you where your $20 bill isn't worth the paper it's printed on. There is nothing particularly special about a dollar bill that makes it fundamentally different from any other intangible object.

    Again, the only difference is the size of the community that shares the belief. The dollar has a much larger user base than crypto. Crypto has a much larger user base than the Albanian Lek.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

    It is real because the people who use it believe it is real. Same goes for zero-dividend stocks, crypto, Yu-Gi-Oh cards, Beanie Babies, etc. The difference between currency and any ofbthese others is only in the number of people involved.

    You can point to government regulations for money. You can point to SEC regulations for stocks and other securities. I can point to algorithmic scarcity for crypto. And I am sure there are standards that various collector communities deem important. But, the fundamental concept value for any of these others is that the people using it believe it has value.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Common trade goods within a barter arent necessarily a currency. Bronze wasnt a currency during the bronze age, mostly because currency wasnt invented yet. Every item you listed isnt a currency they are valuable trade goods at best, currency needs a general degree of universal acceptance, I couldnt go into say a grocery store and pay for my food with yugioh cards, beanie babies, or zero dividend stocks the same applies to crypto.

    To use these goods in a trade one must generally convert them into a useful trade form say USD. Just cause they are valuable doesnt mean anyone will use them as a currency, sure you may get the occasional place that does but yet again near universal acceptance is an important factor.

    On a similar note Russian Rubles arent a currency outside of Russia since they are worth less than monopoly money. Similarly the currency of Joshua Abraham Norton could be considered a pseudo currency in parts of San Francisco during his lifetime, mind you it was because Norton was funny and kind of a meme celebrity but hey it was accepted.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Your comments about Emperor Norton and the Ruble demonstrate my point. The value of these currencies is entirely in the minds of the people using them. None of the items I mentioned have any significant intrinsic value. Their value is to the community that uses the .

    I was not suggesting that any of these items was a currency, merely that they derive their value in the same way that currency does.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Okay now I get what youre saying, but I will say that the Russian Ruble is backed by the Russian state which is far from doing healthy. The backing of these items is based often times on peoples opinions, but say USD is still backed by the government and more specifically the military and economy as well. Just cause its esoteric doesnt mean its not real. The backing maters not the form it takes.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

    Except, you know, the stock being tied to ownership in a company that sells real goods or services. Definitely problems with how stocks are traded, but they’re quite different from crypto.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

    Except, you know, the stock being tied to ownership in a company that sells real goods or services.

    That's the scam: without dividends, or at least the reasonable prospect of dividends, it is not tied to the company in any tangible way. Shareholders benefit only from speculation by other investors, and not from actual business operations.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Almost. If you own a share of a company, you own a share of something fungible, namely literal company property or IP. Even if the company went bankrupt, you own a sliver of their real product (real estate, computers, patented processes). So while you may be speculating on the wealth associated with the company, it is not a scam in the sense that it isn’t a non fungible entity. The sole value of crypto currency is in its speculative value, it is not tied in theory or in practice to something of perceptibly equal realized value. A dividend is just giving you return on profit made from realized assets (aforementioned real estate or other company property or processes), but the stock itself is intrinsically tied to the literal ownership of those profit generating assets.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

    Everything you just said is only true for stocks that pay dividends now, or may pay dividends in the future.

    It is not true for companies with zero intention of ever paying dividends.

    Even if the company went bankrupt, you own a sliver of their real product

    Historically, when that happens, the creditors walk away with the assets. The shareholders get nothing.

    but the stock itself is intrinsically tied to the literal ownership of those profit generating assets.

    That's the scam. It's not. In practice, the sole value of a zero-dividend stock is the speculative value.

    it is not tied in theory or in practice to something of perceptibly equal realized value.

    Electricity has value. Crypto value is intrinsically tied to mining costs. Even if you have access to a free source of power like your own solar panels, you have to weigh the cost effectiveness of mining against the revenue from using your panels to backfeed the grid, selling power back to the power companies.

    Because crypto is tied to something of utilitarian value, and zero-dividend stocks are tied only to the whims of investors, the stocks are actually a significantly greater scam than the crypto.

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