How much worse is it privacy wise for me to give them access to my contacts?

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[–] 50 points 1 week ago (18 children)

Personally I wouldn't give Facebook and Meta access to the list of people I know with their names, phone numbers, and some addresses.

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    [–] 42 points 1 week ago*

    It's disrespectful of their privacy, not only your own.

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  • [–] 38 points 1 week ago (15 children)

    No. Meta is a data harvesting company. Any points of data you give them is bad, privacy-wise.

    And don't believe the claptrap that WhatsApp is "safe" from prying eyes or truly E2EE. Meta is not and has never been trustworthy, and they have been caught lying on countless occasions.

    Use their products at your own peril.

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  • [–] [S] 6 points 1 week ago (13 children)

    but everyone I know uses them and no, they're not switching to signal...

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (6 children)

    Not with that attitude (like, unironically speaking, you have to be more insistent)

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 week ago* (5 children)

    they just said no, I respect that

    EVERYONE IN MY COUNTRY USES WHATSAPP, YOU CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT WA HERE YK...

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  • [–] 2 points 6 days ago (4 children)

    EVERYONE IN MY COUNTRY USES WHATSAPP, YOU CAN'T LIVE WITHOUT WA HERE YK...

    Same thing probably could have been said about my country (Germany) 10 years ago, and look where we're at now.

    I spontaneously deleted my WhatsApp account a few years ago and haven't regretted it once. When people suddenly can't contact you through WhatsApp anymore, they can still use SMS (which is horrible as well but still better than any services by Meta) or hopefully give in at some point and also use Signal.

    Also, do those friends of yours know that you don't have to immediately abandon WhatsApp to use Signal? Both can be used simultaneously, like many of my family and relatives do, and I see almost no logical reason to refuse that.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 6 days ago (3 children)

    BRO SMS AIN'T BETTER THAN WHATSAPP IT HAS NO ENCRYPTION, PURE FANBOYISM

    They just don't want another chat app on their phone, they just use wa for almost everything

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  • [–] 2 points 6 days ago (2 children)

    It's not "fanboyism", I already wrote that SMS is horrible. And what makes you so sure that WhatsApp really is really properly encrypted and not doing some shenanigans? Proprietary apps can claim all kinds of things. So call me naive, but I'll take minimal non-sensitive unencrypted SMS through a somewhat trustworthy service provider over basically spyware on my phone any day, although that may of course be because I live somewhere with relatively decent data protection laws (not that one should put too much trust in those either, but eh, still better than trusting fucking Meta imho).

    People install all kinds of crap on their phones, but a single more private messenger is suddenly too much to ask for? Some people really are beyond saving... Though I can kinda relate, my brother is just as stubborn. Any way, I'd still advise to just quit WA and tell them you'll only communicate through Signal (or SimpleX, Session, etc.) in the future, which should help as an incentive. If you're willing to do that is of course up to yo

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 child)

    Open source doesn't mean it's secure and closed source doesn't mean it's not secure. Also, if it wasn't e2e encrypted, we would find out pretty much instantly since there are a lot of people who reverse engineering apps like WhatsApp, since zero-day exploits cost a lot of money, you know. So, personally, I would be pretty sure that WhatsApp is absolutely end-to-end encrypted.

    Also, how is it a good idea to give a signal my contacts if it's not okay to give meta my contacts?

    Also, if you don't accept this argument, then how do you know there's not a component in your phone that listens to everything you say that's above system level?...

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  • [–] 0 points 3 days ago*

    Of course closed source software can be secure, but given that you can't verify that it actually is, it's better to treat it as if it's not. And I'm not saying that WhatsApp isn't encrypted, but we can't know if this also applies properly to metadata, or which encryption algorithm is actually used, if the keys are really only accessible to end users (i.e. if it's really E2EE), etc.

    It's not unreasonable to think that Meta (or any other Big Tech company) makes their products just secure enough to not allow just about anyone with the right abilities to exploit weaknesses (which would obviously hurt their business), while still retaining the ability for themselves to have access to at least some of the data.

    Also, how is it a good idea to give a signal my contacts if it's not okay to give meta my contacts?

    Also, if you don't accept this argument, then how do you know there's not a component in your phone that listens to everything you say that's above system level?...

    You seem to be treating privacy like an all-or-nothing situation. There's different levels to privacy, with different realistic possibilities and threat models. To give you the short answers to both questions: It's not a good idea to give Signal access to your contacts, and I indeed don't know if there's a component in my phone spying on everything. But there is nuance to both.

    First off, Signal's Contact Dicovery Service is open source. Of course there's still a level of trust required regarding Signal's operational integrity, as we can't know if this is really what runs on their servers, but at least the Signal Foundation doesn't have a history of countless known privacy violations like Meta does, which means it all comes down to how much you trust either of those organisations. So even though I wouldn't recommend granting Signal access to your contacts and personally prefer messengers without such a feature (e.g. SimpleX), I also don't yet insist on recommending against it.

    As for the hardware: Assuming that there is indeed some component spying on me, why would this be a justification to become careless about privacy on the software level? And the real difference between the arguments is the availability of alternatives. While there are quite a few open-source messenger alternatives, the same can't be said about hardware. And it's unlikely for there to be anything on the hardware level that could be spying without anyone noticing, at least if we assume that this hardware would send this data somewhere, which one would surely notice when analysing network traffic or by checking for emitted radio frequencies if the manufacturer had the genius idea of using mesh networks instead.
    However, certain components could certainly be used as a backdoor for state actors if they gain physical access to a device, so I'm still advocating for open hardware and firmware.

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  • [–] 23 points 1 week ago* (7 children)

    This is literally the main thing Meta is interested in. DO NOT EVER DO THAT, please.

    This app can be used as a work around to add contacts in WhatsApp: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/dev.theolm.wwc/

    Or this one: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.vinaygopinath.launchchat/

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  • [–] [S] 2 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    but it doesn't show u ppls names, and when you have a lot of ppl on the app, it's impossible to keep track od them...

    also ur carrier knows ur contact list aswell...

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  • [–] 19 points 1 week ago (12 children)

    You need to ask your contacts if that's ok. Not us.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    Yeah, here in Germany, we've had a verdict that you need to get written permission from all your contacts, if you give WhatsApp access to their data: https://www.rv.hessenrecht.hessen.de/bshe/document/LARE190000029

    I would assume, the same is true in the entire EU.

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    [–] 13 points 1 week ago (3 children)

    I've been refusing to give them permission for about 5 years now, and the only ill effect I've really had is not having a name associated with the contact when texting them

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    [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    I've not read an actual answer to your question in the comments so far.

    If you live somewhere where WhatsApp is the dominant chat app, then you are already a data point for Meta. Unless nobody has your phone number in their contacts.

    If you're concerned about a specific entry in your list of contacts, then it depends on your own point of view. You could use the same logic a above to justify sharing it. You could also decide that you don't like that logic and you do not.

    So, how much worse is it? Probably inconsequential.

    Just to add some aluminium; when using whatsapp your phone data (brand, android version, etc) are added to big data.

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