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[–] 73 points 2 weeks ago (38 children)

To a few philosophers, particularly the hardcore rationalists, Nietzsche's struggle for self-ownership as meaning was, in modern terms, a truckload of copium

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  • [–] [S] 12 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (35 children)

    I can see the argument for that. It kind of fits the narrative of "slave morality". Can I read these philosophers statements? I kind of want to know what they're about

    Edit: completely misspoke. Don't know wtf I was talking about there

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  • [–] 8 points 2 weeks ago (34 children)

    On the rationalist hub per excellence, LessWrong: lesswrong.com/posts/NxYgL5nPMT…

    Criticism of Nietzsche has been out there for a good while. Bertrand Russell, for example, wasn't a fan of Nietzsche, calling his ideology "an appeal to the emotions": reddit.com/r/Nietzsche/comment…

    Calling Nietzsche's philosophy "irrationalist" is still a common trend: monthlyreview.org/articles/on-…

    Even Marxists hammer on Nietzsche's hardcore individualism: queer-bolshevik.medium.com/a-c…

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  • [–] 6 points 2 weeks ago (14 children)

    Britt Hartley takes existentialists to the woodshed, pointing out that it's a fine philosophy if you're living a comfortable life, but if nothing means anything and your life sucks, might as well put a quarter in the suicide booth if existential philosophy is all you have.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 weeks ago* (6 children)

    Is that a refutation? I admit, when I consider how my distant ancestors and the majority of humans throughout history lived, I wonder why they chose to go on, and to create new generations who also lived lives like theirs, and the only answer I have is that they lacked perspective. Maybe a philosophy that teaches one to refuse a life without dignity is, in that context, correct philosophy.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 weeks ago

    Lots more community. Relationships and physical play (e.g. sports, theater, art, ritual, dance etc.) were the primary form of entertainment. Brains were capable of enduring in silence for 10 minutes without exploding in anxiety. Plant medicines were socially acceptable including "drugs".

    Yeah there were diseases, famines, wars, etc. But these weren't constant threats, often regional until empire developed with (inter)continental trade.

    People had joy and fulfillment, a bit of boredom, and many lacked effective contraceptives, so kids happened.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

    Existentialism is a response to essentialism though. It isn't that life has no meaning but that people can be free to choose the meaning and path of their lives. An acorn can only become an oak tree but a person is not born with their future path preordained. The idea is existence before essence instead of essence before existence.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 weeks ago* (4 children)

    An acorn can only become an oak tree but a person is not born with their future path preordained

    modern people love thinking this but most people never move even 50 miles from where they were born and the single largest indictor of ‘success’ in life is your parents income

    for example being born in gaza or ukraine right now is pretty damn bleak

    if it were my choice to be born there or not, i’d pass

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago

    Yes me too. But that same baby born in Gaza could be born 15 miles away and live an entirely different life. That is the whole point. The gazan child is not essentially a victim by virtue of being born in Gaza. The gazan child is likely to be a victim not because she has to be (is essential to her nature) but because someone has chosen to victimise her. What modern people miss is that that distinction was lacking for the first couple thousand years of philosophical thought.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 2 weeks ago* (15 children)

    Just quick short thoughts before I continue reading because I really thought these are immediately striking without further dissection:

    Philosophy aside, the comment on LessWrong that said "Nietzsche is a great source of aphorisms, and may be able to trigger some Deep Thoughts in readers, but a lot of his writing seems more like a sort of performance art to me. At least on a superficial level, he's much easier to read than Kant or Hegel, but that also means he does not even try to argue his point in a rigorous way". Spot on, this is like the main barrier to his books. I see this as the first problem you'll encounter before getting to how fascists twisted his words into justifications for doing fuck-all

    Then, I REALLY like this Monthly Review article. This passage pointed out a perspective of the problem initially sounding like a misread about how "this is just doing barbarism but with extra steps" but actually pretty accurately describes how greater powers in the world will take almost anything we try to do and turn it into barbarism: The liberalization and deregulation of the most intimate sphere of the person will completely achieve the fetishism of the commodity. And the sole revolt which will from here on be permitted to the Nietzschean by power, when an irreducible part of his disarmed consciousness has, through misunderstanding, fomented some insurrection, will be total annihilation, bestiality towards the other animal which his masters will have brought into the neighbouring cage.

    I still need to finish it and get to the Marxist critique but thank you for this

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago

    The fun thing is that if the universe has no meaning then it has no meaning that it has no meaning so you might as well relax and be positive since that has many obvious benefits. Not that I'm a nihilist

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  • [–] 54 points 2 weeks ago* (5 children)

    hedonistic meaningless living

    As if a life embedded in asceticism was supposed to be any more meaningful

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  • [–] 32 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

    Right! I'm glad to see someone thinking critically about what hedonism to fundamentslly means, rather than relying on the more pejorative usage of the term.

    I realised once that, even tho I was a drug free tee totaller who didn't party or have sex much, I was still a hedonistic at that time because I played videogames as much as possible.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

    What would be considered hedonistic back then? Talking a walk in the woods and climbing mountains for pleasure?

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  • [–] [S] 9 points 2 weeks ago*

    In the text it means any choice you make that sacrifices long term benefits for instant gratification. Nietzsche was way into promoting things that give you pleasure, just not at the cost of your health and prosperity

    Obviously Hedonic Philosophy isn't about that either but he wasn't thinking of hedonism as a philosophy, he was describing a problem humans have with how we make choices

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago*

    Unironically, yes maybe. If it is seen as avoiding your responsibilities, and doesn't contribute to some area of society (but rather sees-to the "worship" of you yourself) then it is hedonistic

    Edit: other guy said it better than me

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    [–] 28 points 2 weeks ago (17 children)

    Having kids (one of whom is special needs) plucked me out of the nihilism well that I was drowning in. I’m so thankful for them. Now, I don’t even have time to think or contemplate life. lol

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  • [–] 23 points 2 weeks ago (9 children)

    If you accept that caring for the wellbeing of your kids is inherently meaningful then you must also accept there is meaning inherent in taking care of your own self :3

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  • [–] 3 points 2 weeks ago (6 children)

    only while the kids exist as you forced them into existence thereby incurring the responsibility

    for a thought experiment, imagine you could see your entire life and decide to be born or not based in your mind at the point of death

    what would be the point of living a ‘bad’ life?

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

    only while the kids exist as you forced them into existence

    Many parents have the same realization about their adopted children. You could argue that both types of parents are delusional but the causality isn’t relevant

    imagine you could see your entire life

    The capacity for imagining your whole life presupposes that you have already begun living, silly :3 but okay. Why would this primordial spirit be interested in life at all if it’s optional? Is living your life inherently worth considering, or something?

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    [–] 25 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)
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    [–] 23 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    Paganism is good though. Praise wilderness!

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  • [–] 16 points 2 weeks ago (5 children)

    "That's Cute." -Machiavelli

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

    Ooh. Very stigmatized ethos surrounding that one. Guess I need to find out what the heck happened there

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  • [–] 29 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

    The short version is that Machiavelli is a rather profound Stoic philosopher, but everyone misses that in a lot of his work he is being slightly sarcastic to throw the "powers that be" off the scent that he was criticizing them. When you hear how he suggests that "Princes should be feared rather than respected." he actually calling out the despots of his day. It's kind of how Stephen Colbert portrayed a right wing pundit on "The Colbert Report" as a way of satirizing right-wing pundits.

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  • [–] [S] 19 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (2 children)

    Oh, okay. Well with that summary I'm at least interested in reading more and trying to see if I can parse the satire. Thanks for pointing me in that direction

    Edit: Jesus this is like way obvious after you read how his career in state politics ended. But we named a dark triad psychological trait after him. That's so dirty

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  • [–] 14 points 2 weeks ago

    He should have tried warning people not to look into the abyss or something.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

    There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach you 'bout the raising of the wrist. (Socrates himself was permanently pissed).

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  • [–] 13 points 2 weeks ago

    This also skips on how his sister edited his yet-unpublished works after his death, to include her German ultranationalist and antisemitic views, while he was opposed to them.

    A kinda similar situation to that of Kafka, wherein Max Brod, who was supposed to burn all of Kafka's manuscripts, instead e.g. rearranged the chapters of ‘The Trial’ for no good reason, such that it probably reads way more surrealistically. I've recently listened to some kinda restored edition that attempts to put back the intended order, and while it's still a mess at times, the happenings are pretty understandable.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 weeks ago

    Active vs passive nihilism

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  • [–] 10 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (8 children)

    I always found his frantic fear of nihilism to be a little adolescent, like "how could humanity possibly survive the death of God? How will we live a life without inherent existential or moral purpose?" You just do, Freddy.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    There is a quote from Futuristic Violence and Fancy Suits that I think of every time this comes up.

    “You can lie to yourself, say that you never had a choice, that you weren’t cut out for this. But deep down you’ll know. You’ll know that humans aren’t cut out for anything. We cut ourselves out. Slowly, with a rusty knife. Because otherwise, here’s what’s going to happen: you’re going to die and you’re going to stand at the gates of judgment and you’re going to ask God what was the meaning of it all, and God will say, ‘I created the universe, you little shit. It was up to you to give it meaning.’”

    “You really think God uses that kind of language?”

    “Yes.”

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago

    my take on life is that yeah it doesn’t have inherent meaning, but you don’t need a meaning for everything you do. you can just enjoy being alive despite the meaninglessness, it actually gives you a lot of freedom to do whatever you want to do for the sake of it.

    for the morals: just don’t bring in needless suffering, nobody choose to be here and nobody wants to suffer, the only thing we can do is to make the existing lives better

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    [–] 6 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)

    Some author I read said that nihilism can only be temporary and then natural evolution will be towards stoicism/pragmatism. Later she argued that pragmatism isn't so awesome either, but no concrete arguments were put forward. Quiet pragmatic

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  • [–] 5 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)
  • [–] 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 child)
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