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[–] 230 points 4 months ago (69 children)

I hate this argument every time I see it. It could be used to justify so many terrible prejudices that we’ve been trying to get rid of for decades. I got robbed by a black man once so should I now treat all black men as potential criminals?

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  • [–] 91 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    You put into words thoughts that I've been unable to for a while.

    Like, I read this and I see how someone makes this argument, but I feel fucking terrible afterwards. Sure you haven't said I'm a rapist, but you've said you'll treat me as though I am. You can't expect men as a demographic to agree to this argument if it requires society to assume they're shitty people, at which point, why is it even being made?

    The worst part I feel is that there's a lot of incel types that conflate feminism with sexism, which we'd like to school them by pointing them at a dictionary. While incels are generally shitty, we can't ignore the fact that this argument is telling them their behavior doesn't actually matter because we're going to act like they're rapists based solely on their malehood anyways. (to be clear, this is an explanation, not a justification)

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  • [–] 27 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    There is a distinction between a prejudice born of bigotry, and a prejudice born of a real fear and trauma. And while I understand your point, the difference between these two directly affects how we can effectively address them societally.

    To start addressing it, we can't just keep admonishing traumatized women. We have to understand where the prejudice comes from. The reality is that women need to be on guard constantly, not because of all men, but still specifically because of men.

    They are continuously exposed to stories like the Rape Academy website, see sexual violence normalized in media, encounter rape threats online, and virtually all of them have either experienced sexual assault themselves or know someone who has.

    And while this is not all men, or even most, the statistics are clear: perpetrators of violence and sexual assault against women (and against men) are overwhelmingly male. Since there is no reliable way to identify which men pose a threat until it is too late, it's unsurprising that many women develop a prejudice as a safety mechanism.

    It's unfortunate that this can harden into bigotry, but it's even more unfortunate that the threat giving rise to it exists at all.

    Your analogy of being robbed by a black man "once" actually highlights how widely the pervasiveness of this threat is misunderstood. For women, this isn't a single incident. It's a lifelong threat most acute during their formative years.

    So by way of a counter analogy: would you admonish a black person who grew up in the American South during the Civil Rights era with "not all white people" or "not all cops"? Or would you recognize that their wariness was, prejudiced or not, a rational response to a very real danger?

    I agree that we should strive toward a society where no one is judged on anything but the content of their character. But it's worth noting that countless men rush to admonish frustrated and traumatized women with "not all men," while far fewer show up when stories like the Rape Academy actually break. This imbalance is itself part of the problem.

    And if we as men, and as human beings, want to see less of this prejudice in the world, perhaps the more productive question isn't whether the prejudice is fair, but why so few of us are doing anything to make it less necessary, and why so many of us are more interested in pushing back against women's reactions than addressing the cause of them. And this, for me, calls to mind MLK's observations about the white moderate...

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    [–] 101 points 4 months ago (7 children)

    OK. I was abused by a woman. And know of many cases of abusive women (men too, but we've already decided in this context that all men are dangerous, so that's beside the point). So this means all women are dangerous, too?

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  • [–] 43 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    unfortunately yeah

    do women statistically commit as many violent and/or sexual crimes? no. but some still do

    I've been made fun of (lightly, but still) for letting friends know when I'm going home with a strange woman (which I shouldn't do at all but do anyway for various reasons). Strangers are strangers, you never fuckin know

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  • [–] 49 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    do women statistically commit as many violent and/or sexual crimes? no. but some still do

    Even that assumption I've started questioning. My abuser never appears in any crime statistics, because it's not particularly easy to prosecute a case that is mostly based on psychological torture, since the crimes are hard to prove, easily dismissed as "just a bit of nasty behavior" and have relatively short times within which they have to be reported in order to be prosecuted, depending on the country you're living in. If on top of that you're a man and the abuser is a woman, have fun getting anyone in charge to legitimately believe your story. It doesn't diminish the violence that occurred, I just barely survived it.

    Certain kinds of abuse are vastly underreported. Domestic, psychological and sexual violence (which are not exclusive categories, by the way) belong to these kinds of abuses. Some statistics say northwards of 40% of domestic abuse victims are men, for instance. Well at that point, we're kind of close to parity.

    So let's focus on reducing violence entirely. Because another thing I've learned: while the individual elements of abuse tend to differ between men and women, the patterns are almost always very similar.

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah. It'd be nice if people could just... stop fuckin abusing each other. Gender differences are part of the conversation but we should be discussing it in ways that raise awareness and equip people to recognize, report, and reduce violence. Not in ways that just cause more fuckin arguing and division. Which isn't easy. I certainly have fucked up my rhetorical approach to these things, I think. But we should try, at least :(

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    [–] 74 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    trash like this always ruins all nuance

    might as well be justifying racist stereotypes or calling women gold diggers

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    [–] 74 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    I'm a feminist and I don't get this argument at all. There are plenty of dangerous women too so all women as well? It makes no sense and it's pure toxic femcel delusion.

    Also as an ex-professional scuba diver: the shark analogy is a great illustration how stupidly inaccurate this argument is.

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    [–] 55 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    The problem is equating males to sharks. The exact same arguments have been directed at ethnic groups in the past.

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  • [–] 19 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

    All Palestinians are terrorists

    All gays are pedophiles

    All men are dangerous

    Obviously all this is stupid and dumb and inherently hateful, the following is what it should be

    Any Palestinian could be a terrorist

    Any gay could be a pedophile

    Any man could be dangerous

    There we are, perfectly non problematic statements that are objectively true. Its not my fault that I'm a terrible judge of character and have to treat any individual belonging to those groups as if they were the lowest common denominator. I'm just protecting myself and you need to respect that you fucking fascist.

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  • [–] 51 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

    I used to think this way, "hey it's not all men"! That was until my wife was roofied in a bar. Luckily I was there, just in the bathroom, and when I came out the coward bolted away, but it shattered all of my illusions about my own gender.

    She put her drink down for less than 5 seconds, at her table, with other friends there. They were distracted for a split second while he put something in her drink. God knows what would have happened if I wasn't there.

    Men, we all need to understand that it may be a few bad apples, but a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Women have to keep their guard up because one slip, 10 seconds of being distracted is all it takes. Before that incident I never thought about how guarded they have to be.. all the time. It's insane. Even that instance she was with corowrkers and her fiance was there! She hadn't talked to anyone else and still it happened to her! We never have to worry about things like that. Hell I'm pretty sure just this week I set my drink down and went to the bathroom, and still it didn't cross my mind to check.

    Men bad because, yes, men are real fucking bad. There's people out there who literally do try this shit, and as a woman meeting people they don't know who you are or what you'll try. It is not as simple as "Why don't the trust us"? Because some of us slip roofies into drinks, that's why. Real men will see that and vow to punch those fucking cowards in the face, watch their female friend's drinks for them, and many other things.

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  • [–] 33 points 4 months ago

    There's a place a few towns over, it's like organized rape. The bar owner is in on it, bartenders and the bouncers. They all help drug women and help the rapists. Cops are called every week, they don't care and are possibly engaged in the same activity. It's been years. Known as a rape bar. I highly doubt this is the only one.

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    [–] 43 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I mean maybe it's because your statement was explicitly "all men are dangerous", not "men are dangerous"

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    [–] 42 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Reminds me of this:

    "If I had a bowl of skittles and I told you just three would kill you, would you take a handful?" said the tweet on the verified @DonaldTrumpJr handle.

    "That's our Syrian refugee problem," said the post, which caused a stir and negative tweets on the internet into Tuesday.

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/donald-trump-jr-likens-syrian-refugees-poisoned-skittles

    Are you sure THIS is how we should think?

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    [–] 40 points 4 months ago (2 children)
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    [–] 28 points 4 months ago (5 children)

    Also sharks are awesome, they are older than trees, have important ecological roles and most sharks won't attack any humans. Some even can befriend you, like a toothy puppy.

    The ones that do, tend to do it for curiosity and dislike us because were boney and hurts their teef, it is not their fault that we have the bad habit of bleeding out when we're in the sea.

    As analogies go, this is a bad one:

    • You can easily learn which sharks are dangerous.
    • You will be warned when you go swimming in a dangerous area.
    • You can even take precautions that reduce substantially that danger.

    I don't think it is as easy understanding when someone might hurt you, and it is not like you can choose to have your date be in the water while you chat them up from a boat.

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    [–] 26 points 4 months ago (9 children)

    Thats basically saying all men are rapists, you just don't know which one is going to rape you.

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  • [–] 21 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    When you go through a safe driving class, they teach you to assume everyone else on the road is an idiot who can't drive. This isn't because they are, it's because it's safer to approach it that way.

    In scouts you're taught that if you encounter a carrion animal, you should assume it has rabies. Not because rabies is common, but because you really don't want to be the rare case of rabies.

    When you're learning how to handle firearms, you're taught to assume all guns are loaded until you've personally checked and cleared it. This isn't because guns magically manifest bullets as they're handed from one person to another, it's because it's safer to make sure than to hope someone else didn't make a mistake.

    The only reason this is any different is because it makes weak men feel the same way they want to make everyone else feel.

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    [–] 25 points 4 months ago (4 children)

    I agree with the sentiment, yes, there are dangerous men out there. But this is a terrible analogy.

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    [–] 25 points 4 months ago (6 children)

    Ok so as a man what am I supposed to do about it?

    That's the part I don't understand, if women would prefer the bear over the random man (who's statistically probably fine) that's not much good for the species is it.

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    [–] 22 points 4 months ago

    This doean't feel like a microblog meme.

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  • [–] 20 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Wait till you find out about which demographics of men are your statistical danger, gonna turn that misandry into racism or classism real fast

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    [–] 19 points 4 months ago (22 children)

    I'm ok with women expressing this sort of sentiment, so long as they're also ok with guys making generalisations about women in the same vein -- ie "There are enough of 'this type' of character out there, that you gotta be defensive and assume any could be".

    Saying all men are dangerous is fair, it's also fair to say all women exploit men for financial gain. I don't know many men who've dated for a while, who haven't come across women clearly just seeking free meals, gifts etc; ones who'll judge you based solely on income.

    That said, it's prejudice in either case to assume that an individual of either gender is either of those things just because you've acknowledged the risk is there. Like if your store is constantly robbed by one specific ethnic demographic, it's human nature to be suspicious of any member of that demographic when they come in -- but you'd cross into racism if you explicitly treated them like thieves prior to them being shown as a thief at an individual level.

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    [–] 18 points 4 months ago

    I just want to say, it's not just about femicide, rape and that sort of stuff. Men being dangerous is a spectrum, and those are the high points, but sexist comments, pressuring, bargaining, and much more can also be part of the spectrum.

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  • [–] 18 points 4 months ago (11 children)

    I have no idea what this even means

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  • [–] 34 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    I think the sentiment kicking off the husband explaining should have been "men are dangerous." Then the shark metaphor makes sense, because enough men are dangerous and a low-probability but nonzero outcome for choosing incorrectly is so severe (rape, death, kidnapping) that it makes sense to have a prejudicial heuristic to treat them all as dangerous until reasonably proven otherwise.

    "All men are dangerous" is an absolute statement and just poor semantic logic, so yeah, this is confusing.

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  • [–] 15 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Racial profiling, but instead it's about gender expression.

    Really, the critique is/should be about how there isn't enough societal pressure saying "Don't be a fucking rapist" to men in general. Unfortunately that's hard to change, it takes time and energy and there's a significant amount of pushback. So it's easier to be cautious with how you interact with strange (and rationally, familiar) men. There is a statistically significant non-zero chance they will seek to do women harm. So stating "Men are dangerous", while not especially helpful in combating that very idea, is technically true.

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    [–] 18 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Just so I understand. Feminism can lump every male into a neat little box, and that's considered ok? I think there's a word for that.

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    [–] 17 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Are you scared that your husband will hurt you? If yes why are you with him, if no then not all men could attack you. "All men are dangerous" is a logic so flawed that any argument for or against it is meaningless either in substance or intention.

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    [–] 16 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    What's this "grape academy"?

    Are they talking about the rape academy?

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