Most servers around the world run Linux. The same goes for almost all supercomputers. That's astonishing in a capitalist world where absolutely everything is commodified. Why can't these big tech companies manage to sell their own software to server operators or supercomputers? Why is an open, free project that is free for users so superior here?

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[–] 184 points 8 months ago (18 children)

Microsoft tried to make Windows Server popular. Apple sold a server OS and even its own rack-mount servers for a while.

The people using servers, and often the people making the decisions about what to use have a high degree of technical knowledge and skill. The things that drive popularity in consumer operating systems such as being preloaded on devices and having a polished GUI don't have as big an influence on experts.

Customizability, reliability, and performance do have a big influence on what experts choose, and Linux wins on those points. There's also the history of proprietary Unix being big in the server/supercomputer market, and Linux is an obvious successor.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (16 children)

    Ok. You seem to understand the basic concept I've been screaming for years. That is that not all users are the same.

    I've been saying for a while that linux doesn't face a usability issue. It faces an image issue.

    I know a friend who will not even LOOK at Linux, because she asked me "how do I install software?". I answered that there's two ways. The first is going to a software manager, and using that to download the program. Just like googles app store on android. If it's not there, you type sudo apt install (program).

    The second I mentioned that second part, she said "Ohhhh no no no no no. I won't remember all that...."

    For her the software manager is going to be the absolute best way. HOWEVER, the image of linux is that it's only for tech gurus who can navigate terminal.

    So she has a point here. Yes, there are alternative ways to do things, but for people, it's all about image. Just look at Coke ads. There's nothing special about them. Red can, white classic logo, maybe a polar bear or santa during the holidays. But it works because of image.

    So, my question is, why doesn't linux collectively NOT DISABLE terminal, but instead de-escalate the prominance on which the platform is defined. Why not make it in image closer to what cmd prompts in windows are?

    If you search "how to _____ in windows 10", you'll get a tutorial with photos, and step by step in how to solve your issue, using only the mouse. Almost 100% of the time.

    But if you search "how to ____ in (distro of choice)" you'll be given a tutorial almost 100% of the time in terminal commands.

    If you "get" terminal, you'll understand the errors. I've tried using terminal off and on for about 17 years now. I have a 0% succsess rate of it doing the thing it needs to do. I'm sure these errors are simple. If I knew what it was telling me, I'm sure theres probably an easy fix.

    But a good example is, there was some program I wanted. Its not in my software center. In order to run it, I need something called "python3". I attempt sudo apt install python3. I get a message saying python3 is already installed. I try to install the program. Program says prerequisit python3 needs to be installed. I sudo apt install python3. Python3 is already installed. Sudo apt update python3. Python3 is already latest version. Try to install the program. Still doesn't think python3 is installed.

    I don't know how to fix that. I don't even know what python3 is. That was 4 years ago. I don't even remember what program I was trying to install. I just remember it was during the days I was recovering from cancer, so for 3 months, all day every day I tried to solve it.

    I never solved it.

    So, why can YOU easily see that normal every day users use these machines differently than experts, with different needs?

    Just make the IMAGE of Linux easy enough for toddlers. 12 years ago my 2 year old niece was using an iPad. Even today her dad says she'd never understand Linux. She could....if she tried it. Because a lot of distros function user friendly. But it has that image problem. And until Linux becomes mainstream, the software will never be 1:1. It will be "gimp vs photoshop". And as long as thats the case, usability isn't 100% for normies. Theres still tons of rough edges. And those rough edges become easily solved through terminal. And now we're back to the image problem.

    Why don't the distro makers get this?

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    I can relate to being intimidated by any instructions that mention the terminal. When I first started with Linux I would prefer doing stuff using a GUI over command line.

    I started getting into hobbyist coding stuff, and fifteen years later I'm much more comfortable with the terminal.

    Even so, I think trying to make Linux more palatable for the average person is going to be tough. It's very difficult to make something that's powerful and extensible while also being easy to use.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    In Linux' defense, Python's mess is its own problem.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

    apt was mentioned, so this might actually be Debian's problem. Python doesn't support being installed without its standard library, but (unless they've decided to stop being dumb since I last checked) Debian's python package only contains part of the standard library, and the rest is split into other optional packages. If you find software that says its only dependency is python, on Debian-derived distros, it might not work without installing extra packages, and if the software's maintainer doesn't use Debian and know about this, then their installation instructions won't cover it.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    You're one of the people who would rather watch a 13 minute YouTube video than read a paragraph.

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  • [–] 90 points 8 months ago (15 children)

    A big piece is licensing. When you're throwing hundreds or thousands of processor cores into a data center, somewhere a Microsoft VAR is just drooling to sell you datacenter license packs that you'll need to renew/repurchase for every major OS upgrade. Ah, and you'll need device/user cals. Oh you want to manage it too? Oof.

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  • [–] 50 points 8 months ago (11 children)

    Just to really drive this point home, if I go and price out a dell R470 with the default config from dell.ca it's $9700. If i want a windows server license, that's another $4700 on top of that.

    Why pay 50% more for software that is slower and harder to support? That's not even thinking about SQL server licensing which is even more expensive.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago

    I worked for a mid size distribution center and just the licensing fees for all types of software for about 500 workers was $100k a month. Just basic warehouse management, erp, Microsoft, etc. Let alone data center licensing.

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    [–] 44 points 8 months ago*

    Microsoft comes out with Windows Supercomputer Pro.

    They sell 6 copies.

    When you're running exotic hardware, everything is custom. Linux is the most easily customizable.

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  • [–] 41 points 8 months ago (20 children)

    Linux offers near-endless customisation and Kernel is also open sourced for any kind of (performance) tweaks.

    Moreover, Linux is, by design, better suited to be a server OS than desktop OS.

    These are the same reasons why most of the web servers across world runs on Linux based distros.

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  • [–] 11 points 8 months ago (19 children)

    I'm going to contest you on one point. Linux is well suited as a server OS for all kinds of reasons, true, but it is absolutely just as well suited as a desktop OS. Even for (maybe especially for?) the masses. I consider any thinking otherwise as dated at this point. Arguably only MacOS is slightly better and it's essentially a 'nix derivative with it's own quirks.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (18 children)

    To which my first thought is: who cares, because almost no normies are buying desktop computers any more. I say that as a desktop OS user.

    It's not a popular observation around here but the facts are stubborn. I so wish we nerds would wake up, put our own personal experience aside, and concentrate our energies on how to bring FOSS to the mobile platform. Going forwards, it's all that will count. It's already all that counts.

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  • [–] 30 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Most servers do not need a fancy user interface. They don't have monitors attached to them. Most of the other OSes you listed come bundled with a ton of user experience software along with the expectation a human will directly interact with them.

    Servers are typically deployed and managed with automation, by the thousands. Lean. Simple. Secure. Tuned for their specific purpose. This is a lot easier to do with Linux than an all purpose general use personal computing platform.

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  • [–] 21 points 8 months ago

    Because they have to work

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  • [–] 17 points 8 months ago (8 children)
  • [–] [S] 5 points 8 months ago (7 children)

    But that raises the question: why can't tech companies, with all their billions, manage to produce software that is at least on a par with Linux?

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago

    They could, if they wanted to. This is somewhat an example of "if it isn't broken, don't fix it".

    A lot of that is the fact that Linux is run incredibly lean. Replicating that isn't cheap. They absolutely can, but since Linux is free and they can even modify it to suit their needs, its far simpler to do that.

    Android is the best example. Google wanted a phone OS, so they bought Android Inc, who was making one. They could've spun up their own with their own talent, hired more, etc, but just absorbed one instead. That talent was making a phone OS based on Linux, because, again, they could've delved into the details of OS creation, but it was far easier to take a free OS, change the bits you want changed (like adding touchscreen support, which to my knowledge, wasn't in the Linux version Android started with), and run with the new version you've made.

    It's also worth pointing out that Google has spent a lot of money on Android, and other large companies spend a lot on developing their own custom Linux Distro. It's not like they have one software engineer for Android who downloaded Linux once and changed it. These companies are willing to do what you describe, they just didn't have to reinvent the wheel. The Linux kernel, thanks to the community behind it, is incredibly secure and efficient, and there just wasn't any reason to change it or copy it when it exists and is free to use.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago

    Those companies are the ones paying for Linux development. Thirty plus years of companies developing and improving Linux. Most have their own Linux OS. IBM owns 30% of RedHat. Linux hasn't been a hobbyist OS since the early nineties.

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  • [–] 14 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Most servers around the world run Linux.

    True.

    Why can’t these big tech companies manage to sell their own software to server operators

    Lots of companies large and small are running commercial distributions of Linux including with paid licensing for products Like RHEL (Red Hat Enterprise Linux) or SUSE. Millions of other servers are on co-branded versions of Linux that are provided for free to the customer as long as the customer continues to use the company's service. Examples here are Amazon Linux or Oracle Linux (both of which you're only allowed to run if they're operating on Amazon or Oracle Cloud servers. Now, these same companies likely also use unlicensed free Linux in places, either disposable clusters or labs, but if an application has commercial uptime requirements (meaning downtime costs money), few companies run free Linux in those specific applications.

    or supercomputers?

    This is a frighteningly small install base to try to sell a commercial operating system on. How many supercomputers are there in the world? Perhaps 1000? Moreover, these are such specialized set ups that trying to make a one-size-fits-all OS is likely impossible.

    Why is an open, free project that is free for users so superior here?

    Just because there is free Linux does not mean that all Linux servers in the world are free.

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  • [–] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    I'm pretty sure you can run Oracle Linux on bare metal? But it only makes sense if you plan to run Oracle software on it (they only support enterprise distros like Oracle Linux, RHEL, or SLES) or want to use Ksplice to patch the kernel without rebooting.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    Amazon's and Google's OSes already are Linux variants. The thing that makes Android is the GUI userland, not the underlying system which is just Linux with a libc implementation not by GNU.

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  • [–] 10 points 8 months ago (8 children)

    One thing I'm not seeing mentioned is Windows forces restarts and updates, which admins really don't want to have servers interrupted by, at intervals of Microsoft's choosing. With Linux you choose 100% of the restart and update times.

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  • [–] 8 points 8 months ago (3 children)

    That's not really how Windows servers work. Most large enterprises are likely going to be using WSUS or other patch management for updates where you can choose exactly which patches you want and when to do them. Those updates do almost always require reboots, but again you can schedule those reboots at a time of your choosing.

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Linux has an extremely flexible architecture. Before Linux, most servers ran on UNIX, and before that, well, networking was in a very early and rudimentary stage.

    When UNIX licensing shenanigans kept happening, Linux was a more and more attractive option as it matured.

    Today, Linux is an incredibly flexible, reliable and performant OS. It's free, in most cases. Why would anyone use anything else? HPC software all runs on Linux and UNIX. You can run it on a tiny little SBC like a raspberry pi, you can run it in an embedded system like car infotainment or a smart meter, and you can run it on ultra high-performance supercomputer clusters. It doesn't give a damn; it just works.

    Why would we use anything else? Apple's ecosystem, while great, makes no sense in the server world. They have their own unique directory service that nobody wants to support (unless they're trying to sell something to Apple themselves), they have total control over the OS and its capabilities, and it's technically illegal to modify. Windows has a heavy GUI, and its command-line interface is middling at best and difficult to learn. Windows excels in backwards compatibility and ease of deployment, which makes it ideal for small and medium businesses, but it quickly becomes irrelevant once you scale to a certain point. This is why they've got their Azure AD product, for example. It's attempting to fix the scalability issues with Windows Server. Having spoken to some of the developers of Windows Server, it's also plain as day that Microsoft is only really maintaining Windows Server to collect on their existing contracts. They have no desire to grow that part of their business.

    With all of this in mind, Linux the most obvious choice. It takes no time at all to slap a copy of Ubuntu Server on a pizza box and have a functioning server up in an hour. Everything else is more complex, slower, and costs money.

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    [–] 9 points 8 months ago*

    You answered your own question:

    That’s astonishing in a capitalist world where absolutely everything is commodified.

    If you bought windows for the hundred or so servers you manage how much is that going to cost you up front and then again every time Microsoft decides to just end support and roll out a new OS? How much work does it take to manage those licenses and make those updates? And what are you getting in return for that additional expense?

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  • [–] 9 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    Linux requires a lot more knowledge to get functioning properly, but gives more freedom when you do.

    Good thing IT experts aren't regular users and can handle that just fine. Supercomputers datacenters also have their own support on hand. They don't need to outsource it like they do in regular businesses.

    That and the licenses.

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    [–] 8 points 8 months ago

    Linux is maintained by large companies

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  • [–] 7 points 8 months ago

    Amazon Linux is based on Red Hat... i.e. Linux...

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago

    It was mentioned in the threads, but I don't think it got enough attention. Mostly it comes down to money. Yes, customization, efficiency, etc of Linux, but also because every $ not spent on licensing is a $ you can spend.on making the data center better. So maybe it's buying.more hardware, or having more money for infrastructure like electricity , cooling, and bandwidth. Or just plain profit. Licensing is a nightmare with microsoft. Rather save the money and time and.make a better data center.

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  • [–] 6 points 8 months ago (4 children)

    Because those engineers were free to create the value that they needed and only the value that they needed. Windows Server and OSX Server were/are not unfettered. They, therefore could not offer a better value.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV0a-b_VhBg

    Google and Amazon are competing with their own Linux OSes. Even IBM bought 30% of RedHat almost 30 years ago. Windows is developing their own Linux OS now too, Azure Linux. Windows Server is down to 40% in their cloud Azure environment. I'm just guessing that's because many long term contracts are ending and the companies associated have been migrating away from Windows Server. Hence the need for Azure Linux. OSX server flopped big time twenty years ago. Apple had to shutdown their entire XServe division. You don't always have to sell the software or OS to make money off of it. Especially when there is heavy competition. It's like restaurants in the US giving away free tap water when you sit down to eat. There are a lot of ways to compete for dollars in a capitalist world.

    /u/Zak did a pretty good job summing it up.

    These servers are hosting custom software. The devs can develop for any hardware and OS combination. So the choice is largely performance, features, and price. Free is the best price in a capitalist world. Free isn't the only price though, companies are just fine spending money if they are getting a better value. They just aren't with Windows Server and didn't with OSX server, they don't offer a better value. They aren't more performant and they don't offer any features that make it worth the money or risking vendor lock-in. With Linux, if the value you need isn't there, anyone is free to create the value that is needed, with zero limitations. And they only need create the value they need.

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    [–] 6 points 8 months ago*

    Us oldsters remember the UNIX wars. There were a number of different flavours of UNIX fighting for commercial domination. In the end they all failed because of fragmentation. This is why Linux won.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago

    Because being beholden to a single mega corp is a massive business risk. If MS decides to yank support or they go under then you suddenly need to migrate to a new OS for your entire server farm with all the problems that come with it, like having to port all your custom software to the new OS. Also if the US decides to sanction the country your business resides in than you are also fucked if you run your entire IT infrastructure on Windows. Linux being opensource mitigates all those problems. Like if for some reason you can't use the distro you use you can always migrate to a fork.

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  • [–] 5 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    It works well, has little to no vendor lock in, and has reasonable or no licensing costs.

    Also drivers can be developed without needing anyones permission or validation like with Windows drivers.

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