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A simple solution at cost of minor aesthetic changes (feddit.de)
submitted 3 years ago by to c/memes@lemmy.ml
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[–] 54 points 3 years ago (39 children)

Going with the “batteries catch on fire argument” is stupid. “Batteries are heavy and expensive” is probably more compelling. But yeah, wires are better solution for things going in fixed routes.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (34 children)

    The ammount of water required to put out a normal car is infinitely less than the amount required to put out a battery fire.

    Not to mention the extra weight, nor the retention loss per recharge meaning we need to change batteries every 2-4 years polluting a lot more, we ain't even talking about the energy loss when doing the conversion to electric and then again to mechanical.

    The electric transport is the way to go in the future, but firts it needs to have a solid foundation, and nuclear is the way to go at least in this moment. Otherwise we are only making things worse.

    Edit for those wondering about the battery degradation: https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

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  • [–] 21 points 3 years ago (11 children)

    we need to change batteries every 2-4 years

    Wait, what‽ No. We don't need to change batteries every 2-4 years. That's what you do with TV remote controls and temperature sensors, not electric car batteries, LOL!

    Electric car batteries are made to last at least 7 years (from a warranty standpoint) but in reality it's more like 10. Not only that but they're not single, gigantic objects. They're made of lots of "cells" so if one of them is going bad you can replace just that one bad cell.

    Anecdote: The batteries in my Prius lasted 15 years before I had to replace one of the cells. Then a year later I had to replace another one. A year after that I sold it so I have no idea how the batteries are doing right now but I'm sure another cell would probably need to be replaced by now 19 years in service).

    I'd also like to point out that the latest electric car batteries are vastly superior to the ones in my Prius.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 years ago

    Yeah, what I've heard is that water cooling the batteries (like almost every EV does now) massively extends the life. Early Prius batteries had no cooling and the heat degraded them faster. 15 years is a pretty good life still.

    On the subject of battery warranty:

    The federal government requires manufacturers to offer an eight-year/100,000-mile warranty on all EV batteries. California does one better, mandating a warranty of 10 years or 150,000 miles. Some companies will cover a battery only if it completely stops working, while others will replace the battery if it falls below a certain capacity, usually 70% of the original, while still under warranty.

    It's important to note, a degraded battery, even with 50% of its original capacity is still useful. Someone who doesn't need the range could drive it, or the battery could be taken apart, and have the cells repurposed or recycled. Lithium and some of the other rare metals used in batteries are quite valuable for recycling, and our abilities to do so are getting better every year.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Electric car batteries are made to last at least 7 years (from a warranty standpoint) but in reality it’s more like 10. Not only that but they’re not single, gigantic objects. They’re made of lots of “cells” so if one of them is going bad you can replace just that one bad cell.

    Sincere question, what happens with the second hand electric vehicle market? New electrics make a ton of sense, but in my mind the 'used car' market becomes essentially unobtainable for poor folk. If a 12 year old electric vehicle hits the market, eventually the second or third owner is going to have to replace the batteries and poor people can't afford the 5000 plus labor to get new cells for it.

    This isn't a situation that affects me, at the moment, but there are millions of people around the globe who buy the $1000 car and drive it until it just doesn't go anymore. I don't see that being an option for electrics.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (4 children)

    Sure, that replacement time isn't 4 but 15-20 years (well, except early Leafs that didn't have battery temperature management of any kind), but my 20 year old car's gas tank fits just as much gas as it did 20 years ago.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    If you think any ICE car is going to outlast an electric you're mistaken. EVs have a fraction of the moving parts of an ICE car and as a result are expected to last a lot longer. 30+ years for an electric car isn't out of the question. Especially the latest ones with their water cooled batteries.

    The number of moving parts is just one (albeit a great big) factor as to why EVs are a lot more reliable and will last a lot longer than an ICE car. There's other elements as well such as the regenerative braking... You basically have an expiration date that tells you when to replace the brake pads instead of a number of miles (or thickness). Because the brake pads themselves will never wear enough from normal driving to warrant replacement. Instead you have to figure out the replacement time based on exposure to natural radiation (LOL) and seasonal hot/cold cycles.

    The magnets in the motors lose about 5% of their strength every 100 years. So again, the thing you're accounting for when figuring out how long the motors will last is the exposure to natural radiation degrading the insulation of the wires (LOL).

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    I'm aware an ICE car requires more maintenance. But, two things. My gas tank doesn't get smaller over time and good luck taking your Tesla or Chevy Bolt to an unauthorized repair shop and let them try to fix anything without access to OEM diagnostic tools. Yes, new ICE cars are also full of this bullshit, but hey, my 20 year old ICE car isn't!

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (2 children)

    I didn't mean it literally, but easily it could be considering how u lose performance if u use a battery powered vehicle in somewhere to hot, or to cold.

    Also, look how much degradation suffers the battery's https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (1 child)

    According to Geotab a Tesla will be at 90% of it's initial State of Health (SoH) after 5 years of use while a Leaf (which is well-known for shit thermal management and poor battery quality) will be at 80%. That's worse than their other charts which show averages of 85% SoH in an equivalent amount of time.

    Regardless, even operating at 80% after five years is completely fine. The curve isn't really linear anyway so after about 10 years the batteries will likely be operating at about 70% of their original SoH in the worst case scenario.

    Also consider that the price of lithium ion batteries has dropped consistently year over year for the past decade. There was a bit of a hiccup because of COVID but that's over now and the price is continuing to drop. That means the cost of a replacement battery pack in 10 years will likely be 60-90% cheaper (if the current trend continues) than it is today.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

    So? First of all, my platina already has more than 12-13 years and if I lose any performance if I lose any at all, is gonna be maybe, MAYBE %3. And the real matter is all the implications of making those batteries, contamination, and NO FUCKING IMPROVEMENT OVER A NORMAL CAR, in any case it would be worse. What's the point of making ur car battery dependent when the energy used to charge it comes from burning the same fossil fuel as before, but now losing energy in the conversions from one kind of energy to another.

    That's without even talking about all the draconian software locks, how companies r starting to lock functions wich already come with the vehicle, how they r trying to kill the right to repair, etc, etc, etc. We don't even know if changing batteries is gonna be allowed or if its gonna be illegal in some way as apple shenanigans already did it in Mexico where its now illegal to even install linux in a computer u already buy it since it would be "alteration without agreement". Want a real change and really helping the planet? we need better public transport and changing how we produce electric energy as a whole, because right now just putting a battery in a car and calling it a day is just additional problems to the already present ones in traditional cars.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago

    Just remember that "good" solutions are still preferred over "bad" solutions, and there are never any "perfect" solutions. I see too many people think electric cars are terrible because of what they've been told, like the batteries. For me, it's like "Yeah, but they're still better than ICE vehicles". They'll get better, they're definitely not perfect, but they are just better

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  • [–] [B] 2 points 3 years ago (18 children)

    and nuclear is the way to go at least in this moment.

    Nuclear is about to go away, looking at the statitics.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (11 children)

    Nuclear is about to go away FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK German government

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago (10 children)

    Frankly, I don't mind as long as I can get enough electricity at any time of the day.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (9 children)

    So you don't mind paying 40 cents/kWh?

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  • [–] [B] 1 point 3 years ago (5 children)

    That would be if we had nuclear only.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (4 children)

    Well, there is a push against nuclear and for renewables and prices are going up. Something something ccorrelation causation

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  • [–] [B] 0 points 3 years ago* (3 children)

    Might have something to do with Corona and most fossil gas coming from russia, don't you think?

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    And shutting down clean and safe nuclear power, yes. Why do you think we were so reliant on Soviet natural gas?

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago (2 children)

    I'd be paying that anyway for renewable power given the geography of my country, where nuclear is impossible (ABSOLUTELY impossible). If someone could cut the natural gas from our energy pie and give us clean electricity as a replacement we'd be grateful, given our limited space and relative lack of renewable resources.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    And I'm paying that thanks to the German government who made us reliant on cheap and "clean" Soviet natural gas instead of making our own power with our own resources. But hey, shifting emissions to Siberia is easier!

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago

    Atomausstieg was plain stupid, agree. But legitimately. I have no idea how my country will survive decarbonisation. We're a tropical island; we have money, but not much else with regard to resources anyway.

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    I thought he wanted nuclear energy in cars?

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    Small nuclear reactor in your car is stupid, but I would love if every city had its own nuclear reactor. Central power and heating!

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  • [–] 0 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago)

    Why would I want a ducking bomb under me ? No, I want I city with solar+nuclear power energizing public transport and THEN maybe u could use a battery personal vehicle to move like an autonomous trolleybus.

    My problem with "electric" cars right now is where the energy comes from.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    Yup batteries are not the way. By the time the batteries need to be replaced you might have helped slightly but probably not. Batteries is a illusion to going green right now. Just another product that has a demand and an easy market for it.

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