564
this post was submitted on 14 Feb 2024
564 points (95.3% liked)
News
23367 readers
3061 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I didn't watch but read all the filings, as an attorney.
At this stage the only issue was: whether South Africa's application states a plausible claim.
That means that the tribunal must presume everything in South Africa's application is true. The most salacious claims in the application are attributed to "reports" and often lack sufficient detail to even ascertain the data and location. Others are reports of things that are wildly speculative and solely from the putative victim's vantage.
There has been no evaluation of evidence of Israel's actual conduct, no consideration of Israel's claims of military targets, and no consideration of Israel's claims of having warned people.
Only jurisdiction and plausibility. Plausibility ≠ probability. Your analogy is clumsy in light of the actual state of the pleadings and the standard of proof at this stage, which is "everything the complainant says is deemed true, hypothetically."
So for your analogy, just add the word "hypothetically" before the word "plausible" and it's less clumsy, more accurate.
I truly wonder for how long a nice person such as yourself would remain in denial
I think you know I'm being honest in my posts, calling it as I see it, and when I've gotten it wrong I admit it and correct it. I've said many times the sort of evidence that would convince me, and many times that there is zero doubt that the Israeli's have committed a number of war crimes, maybe even enough to say it's part of a culture and custom within the IDF that must be addressed by the ICJ. It's still a democracy and it's fighting against people that have literally zero understanding or respect for human rights.
Well, from observing you, it seems that you always call any and every news article or video or evidence that shows the IDF committing war crimes a "report"... and you somehow always think that calling it a "report" somehow would make it any less credible. I don't think you exercise this same thing with other news you read... it seems like it's only the news that have to do with Israel committing a televised genocide, one of the worst of our times.
You can say all these things about yourself but honestly it seems like me and many others have noticed the opposite and told you about it and you're still in some kind of denial.
It's so sad that you seem to base this view on them being a "democracy" when they have been so fucking undemocratic every single day. It's so sad that you seem to brush over the crimes of the IDF no matter how they are presented to you.
Respect your view, but look: Israel is a democracy. That's a settled fact of political science. Saying it's not is the same as saying the earth is flat; actual, wilfull denial. Brushing over crimes? Like when I say "Israel has committed a bunch of war crimes and must be held responsible for them?"
Yes, "reports," without more, are not credible, there's just too much fake information and too much rushing to publish for reporters and readers to be so sloppy. Reports must name the witnesses, must say how many reports, must state the date and location.
Ethical journalism means getting three confirmatory sources before publishing based on anonymous sources. When based on a single, named source, the facts must be at least partially confirmed by another source, independently, and if any part of the report remains unconfirmed, the article must say "we were unable to independently verify X part of the report."
Further, ethical journalism requires the reporter to seek and publish unedited comment from the involved parties. If you read an article and it does not include a statement from the IDF, even if the statement is "no comment," it's pretty much not credible reporting.
Look for this stuff when you read news about Gaza, epecially when the claim is one that is instantly outrageous or that makes you say "that's unbelievable/unconscionable!"
How on earth can a country be an apartheid ethnostate and a democracy at the same time?! Democracy only for Jews and Israelis in Israel without the Palestinians is not a democracy.
Like I said, you always deny "reports" from humanitarian organizations, from Reuters, from B'Tselem, basically anyone showing the massacres happening now. You can toss and turn and make those claims all you like but it's your entire discussion history with everyone that shows just how biased and blind you are.
I honestly think it's something psychological with you. I really hope you will look into your heart and actually treat us Palestinians like human beings.
I didn't invent political science and make up the definition of democracy. America was still a democracy while it had chattel slavery. And look, we used it to get rid of chattel slavery just like Israel is going to use it to get rid of Netanyahu and his party.
You're right, it is something psychological: I control my emotional reaction to the story and evaluate it based on rational interpretation and reasonable inferences drawn from credible evidence.
For example, it's not rational to say the earth is flat, nor is it rational to say Israel isn't a democracy. Those questions and most others do not concern your feelings as to what you want to be true.
Rueters and B'Tselem are pretty good usually.
Was America really a democracy when black people and women couldn't vote?
@[email protected] could I get an answer to this question?
Was America really a democracy when black people and women couldn’t vote?
PS: for those wondering, they finally answered me here: https://lemmy.world/comment/7806013
And basically they said "yes, it's still a democracy"
LOL
If you really think that the highest court of the UN, with an international team of judges is unable to identify which evidence brought forth in a case is plausible, in the sense of worthy of consideration, then i am sorry for all of your clients.
The court has in its decision mentioned, which information it deemed relevant and worthy of emphasis. In particular they quoted Statements by the Israel president, prime minister, minister of defence and IDF, that give reason to investigate genocidal intent.
Also they specifically mentioned, that Israel warnings and designated safe zones are insufficient, as Israel has regularly (and this is undisputed) bombed the areas it priorly designated as "safe".
"Go south" isn't the same as "we guarantee your safe passage southward."
Not telling someone that you wouldn't kill them is no justification for killing them. But with your argument you shoudl realize that this is another reason, why Israel cannot and is not trusted by the ICJ to take proper measures to protect the civillians.
And in this case unlike in Ukraine and other wars there is an especially high responsibility for Israel, because they are de facto occupiers of Gaza, by controlling all the border crossings, the sea and the air.
Just saying "well there wasn't a clear seperation between combatants and civillians" doesnt cut it, if you are the one who keeps the civillians from getting to safety.
Have you seen for yourself any of the evacuation notices and warning phone calls the IDF has made?
Keeps them from getting to safety? Isn't it true that ~1.9 million people have evacuated and nearly ~1.9 million of them (~99.?%) are still alive, and that ~600,000 people could not or would not evacuate and nearly 600,000 of them (~99.?%) are still alive?
When also considering how flagrantly Hamas uses large groups of civilians as human shields, blocks routes, lies to people about where to go and what to do, and hides military assets under peoples' houses, and if there were truly no regard for civilians, a widespread problem of safe zones and evac routes being wantonly blocked or targeted, and other such indiscriminate bombing, then why aren't we here talking about hundreds of thousands of deaths? Why, given the fact that we're talking about barely into five-figures after five months of war, is it not evidence of great care and precision?
I agree wholeheartedly that Israel as de facto sovereign of Gaza has a special duty to the people of Gaza. I don't agree that such duty changes the rules of engagement in areas of operation during combat. Rather, I think the duty is one of irredentism and speaks mostly to Israel's duty to rebuild the failed state next door and make it safe after Hamas is destroyed.
I really wonder how long you will carry around this obvious lie. Proximate shielding is made up bullshit that allows the IDF to snipe little girls. People living in a place does not make them a human shield.... Not that it ever stopped Israel from butchering and massacring innocent people anyway... You should know better. I thought you were a lawyer, not just a pro-Zionist?
Hospital after hospital and all they find is a few rifles (that they placed themselves inside the MRI room LMFAO)... Hospital after hospital, thousands of dead people pile up, and I'm sorry to say that you don't seem to value Palestinians as much as other humans. Imagine if you valued them as much as you valued your own life... I'm sure the tables would turn then.
Hmmm look at this, Israel uses this term as part of their apartheid law!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_apartheid
It's hilarious because they don't even try to hide it. This is Israel that you defend so much, a G E N O C I D A L fucking A P A R T H E I D state.