Water comments on "Both parties are the same!"

[–] Water@real.lemmy.fan 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

Truth be told, I am not really a progressive in any conventional sense of the word - but I am in many other ways and, more importantly, I remember the anti-war left. As I am a pacifist and the anti-war movement is close to my heart, I always feel that progressives who cheered on the Ukraine conflict were not really progressives...

And let me also point out: more people are killed and negatively impacted by US foreign policy than any border wall. Yes, of course, I will not ask any progressive to get on board with Trump's immigration policy, but let's also remember: even with the Republican congress, his policies were largely ineffective. There's also something to be said about immigration reform and coming up with a system where everyone who comes is legal and not exploitable.

I do not want to be too contentious because my goal here is to try to appeal to progressives to be more anti-war going forward and rethink their positions on the Ukraine war... But, more importantly, haven't we all just seen what the Biden administration is doing in regards to Palestine?

Establishment Democrats do not deserve your vote - displacing establishment democrats and replacing them with actual progressives should be the #1 priority of any US American progressives, right?

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[–] crackajack@reddthat.com 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

There is a thing called "just war". Ukraine has clearly been wronged by being attacked unprovoked. It is only right to support them. There have been instances when the West had been wrong for waging war or supporting another, except this one is different. Telling Ukraine to give up is like telling UK and Republic of China to give up as well, when Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were rampaging amd killing civilians wantonly. And mind you, there were uninformed peaceniks and isolationists back then doing the same as you're doing now before the US entry into World War II. The naive and misinformed peaceniks and centrists somehow think they will not be affected in an increasingly globalised world. But then again, most people have tunnel vision.

Telling Ukraine to surrender is letting the UN Charter to respect national sovereignty be demolished, a cornerstone that kept world peace, for the most part, intact for the last 80 years. This enlightened centrism is only serving at the benefit of authoritarian countries that don't respect basic human decency and rules. "Evil prevails when good men do nothing", literally what this misinformed (or perhaps fake) centrist take on Russian invasion.

As for Palestine, Biden himself is getting fed up with Israel. But political pressure keeps him from abstaining support.

I'm not saying all in all that the West and US is the best option for world order-- I prefer a multipolar world-- but that's how it is right now. The West isn't some moustache twirling villain concocting plans all the time in a backroom, but there is no unified policy in the West and their policies must be judged on their own merit. Invasion of Iraq: bad. Supporting Ukraine: good. The usurping of US-led Western hegemony, which is deeply flawed, is for another time.

Also, I'm not American so I don't vote. The thing is with Americans and lack of progressives in Democratic party is that ordinary progressives do not vote, or at least mobilise. As much as establishment machinery is hard to destroy, apathy is as much to blame (which serves the corrupt both local and abroad).

Edit: wording

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[–] Water@real.lemmy.fan 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

There is a thing called “just war”. Ukraine has clearly been wronged by being attacked unprovoked. It is only right to support them. There have been instances when the West had been wrong for waging war or supporting another, except this one is different. Telling Ukraine to give up is like telling UK and Republic of China to give up as well, when Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were rampaging amd killing civilians wantonly. And mind you, there were uninformed peaceniks and isolationists back then doing the same as you’re doing now before the US entry into World War II. The naive and misinformed peaceniks and centrists somehow think they will not be affected in an increasingly globalised world. But then again, most people have tunnel vision.

The Russian invasion can be seen as interfering with one side in a civil war that is historically a part of their country and has little to do with the Ukraine, and it does not have many parallels to WWII, IMO... I think each conflict has to be treated differently.

You also use some example where the entire tide of battle is shifted by the entry of the US - of course, such a thing could also happen here, but it could just mean that the war goes nuclear.

Telling Ukraine to surrender is letting the UN Charter to respect national sovereignty be demolished, a cornerstone that kept world peace, for the most part, intact for the last 80 years. This enlightened centrism is only serving at the benefit of authoritarian countries that don’t respect basic human decency and rules. “Evil prevails when good men do nothing”, literally what this misinformed (or perhaps fake) centrist take on Russian invasion.

Here we are at the point where left wing progressives talk about how world peace has been maintained by the UN charter forgetting by the millions dead in Vietnam and Iraq at the hands of the US who blatantly could ignore these things.

As for Palestine, Biden himself is getting fed up with Israel. But political pressure keeps him from abstaining support.

I will not argue with someone who wants to believe that Biden has the right idea on this, but political pressure keeps him in the game of supporting a war abroad. This can be seen as part of my thesis: someone like Trump who is not beholden to the system has more ability to break from foreign policy norms.

I’m not saying all in all that the West and US is the best option for world order-- I prefer a multipolar world-- but that’s how it is right now. The West isn’t some moustache twirling villain concocting plans all the time in a backroom, but there is no unified policy in the West and their policies must be judged on their own merit. Invasion of Iraq: bad. Supporting Ukraine: good. The usurping of US-led Western hegemony, which is deeply flawed, is for another time.

Oddly enough, with the hundreds of billions in aid given to the Ukraine, the usurping of Western hegemony really isn't for another time. The multipolar world just arrived.

Ukraine is already a lost cause - the most recent declaration appears to make it so that Ukrainian women will now be drafted and sent to the front alongside their men since they are so starving for soldiers. It's unprecedented.

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[–] crackajack@reddthat.com 1 point 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

The Russian invasion can be seen as interfering with one side in a civil war that is historically a part of their country and has little to do with the Ukraine, and it does not have many parallels to WWII, IMO... I think each conflict has to be treated differently.

Hitler also saw Danzig as part of Germany and used that as pretext to invade Poland. Eastern Ukraine is not more Russian than Danzig is German. The Ukrainian borders were already agreed upon after the fall of Soviet Union.

Here we are at the point where left wing progressives talk about how world peace has been maintained by the UN charter forgetting by the millions dead in Vietnam and Iraq at the hands of the US who blatantly could ignore these things.

I concede on Iraq. Though on Vietnam, the US involvement is at the invitation of South Vietnam. US also did not invade North Vietnam. Same as Soviet Union was in Afghanistan. USSR did not invade but was invited by the ruling Afghan communist government.

Moreover, just because another country acted with impunity doesn't mean another could. Tell me you support imperialism without saying you do simply because others did.

Edit: Lastly, allowing Russia to get away with this sends signal to China to also invade Taiwan, and beyond.

I will not argue with someone who wants to believe that Biden has the right idea on this, but political pressure keeps him in the game of supporting a war abroad.

He still has to appease subordinates, peers and electorates. It's ill-informed to think he is immune to political pressure, especially in a democracy. Leaders, even dictators, rarely have absolute power.

This can be seen as part of my thesis: someone like Trump who is not beholden to the system has more ability to break from foreign policy norms.

Breaking norms such as stealing classified documents, especially relating to Russia? I suppose you don't mind breaking foreign policy norms that support Russia?

Ukraine is already a lost cause - the most recent declaration appears to make it so that Ukrainian women will now be drafted and sent to the front alongside their men since they are so starving for soldiers. It's unprecedented.

Ukraine already have women in the armed forces anyhow. And it is not like this makes any difference to Ukraine who is already in a total war. Russia, on the other hand, is suffering massive demographic crisis and labour shortage even with partial mobilisation. Putin will call upon more soldiers. The cost of war is creeping into the Russian society, which Putin had been trying to avoid but it will eventually come full circle.

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