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Hamas says no hostage will leave alive unless group's demands met (www.telegraph.co.uk)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/news@lemmy.world
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[–] 8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

They don't want to kill all Jews. They want the expulsion of all Jews from Israel/Palestine. At least according to their original manifesto, they've changed it to remove this part to be fair.

It can be argued that the Israeli government wants the same thing for the Palestinians.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    “rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea” .. “the Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them.”

    Hamas’ 1988 charter

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  • [–] 10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Thanks I was too lazy to find the exact citation.

    Do you see the difference between what you said and their charter ? What Hamas wants is awful enough, no need to exaggerate.

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  • [+] [S] -8 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    When they say kill jews they mean all, everywhere. They've even stated this to the press.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Some members have stated as such but have been corrected by the leadership. Hamas, at least publicly, only said that they wanted to forcefully displace the Jews and that they would not hesitate to kill civilians to attain that objective.

    Example: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/senior-hamas-official-urges-palestinians-worldwide-to-kill-every-jew-on-the-globe

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)

    Oh that's all? Thank goodness forcible displacement using coercive threats on a civilian population isnt a war crime. I don't understand why you are splitting hairs on the goals of this openly genocidal group. Supporting Palestinians doesn't mean you have to go to bat for Hamas.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago

    Where do you see that I'm supporting them? I literally reiterated in many comments that what they want is a war crime. No need to invent some other objectives they are plenty awful enough.

    Truth matters, especially in conflicts like this.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Actually resisting oppression and removing the oppressors from your land is indeed not a war crime.

    Just like how the Ukrainians have the right to expell the Russians colonizing Crimea.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    It really didn't take much to get you in the mood to justify a targeted attack on civilians did it. I'm consistent in my view that it's wrong to murder civilians, but it doesn't seem like you are.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 child)

    Yeah just 75 years of brutal oppression and all forms of peaceful protests being massacred like the March to Return in 2018.

    Was Ukraine targeting civilians when they invaded Crimea too? Some Russian civilians sure died from it.

    Just forget all the propaganda you've been reading and look at the sheer numbers of miliary Vs civilian deaths.

    You're really far gone down the IDF propaganda drain if you still believe Oct7 was just an attack on civilians.

    It was a targeted attack on IDF military bases and also hostage takings on the Kibbutzes nearby. Yes "civilians" were killed but the amount is low compared to the amount of soldiers. Furthermore the israeli "civilians" were extremely heavily armed.

    Those videos of Hamas throwing grenades inside shelters? IDF Soldiers were inside.

    If Hamas was going for civilian casualties they would have planned pushing in further and would have likely been able to kill at least 10k

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  • [+] [S] -14 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    You really want me to give you recent quotes from their leaders? You want to look that stupid?

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  • [–] 10 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Well yes ? How else would you want to do this. I just gave you an example of a senior Hamas officer saying kill all Jews and Hamas saying they do not agree.

    I have no doubt Hamas leadership is a bunch of genocidal maniacs but their official stance has been in the past the forceful displacement and nowadays it's the return to pre 1967 borders. They are ready to admit to the existence of Israel, not by pleasure mind you, but their official stance nowadays is that they are partially open to a two state solution if the right to return is put in place.

    This might be a bunch of lies, but it is their official position.

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  • [–] -2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Given that Jews are not likely to voluntarily leave Israel, this is de facto a call to violently expel or kill all Jews in the area, which is nearly half of the world's Jews.

    While yes, going from "Kill all Jews" to just "Kill half of all Jews" is an improvement, it's still not "let's all hold hands and find a way to get along!". This isn't to say that the Israeli far right is all that much better really, though they're better at knowing what parts to say out loud.

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  • [–] 7 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Yes it is a clear war crime don't get me wrong. But exaggeration has no use when reality is awful enough.

    Hamas is a terrorist organisation that will not hesitate to kill civilians to achieve their ideals. They do not publicly at least want to kill all Jews.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    TBF, so is the IDF. They have killed, what, nearly 20,000 Palestinians, mostly women and children non-combatants, since they declared war on Gaza? They claim to care about not killing civilians, but they sure aren't putting a lot of effort into not killing them.

    What's a reasonable ratio of combatants to non-combatants killed? 1:1? 1:10? If Israel has to kill one hundred civilians in order to kill a single Hamas militant, is that acceptable?

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Hamas civilian casualty rate on Oct7 was around 3/4 civilians to IDF, with 29/1200 children deaths.

    This is better than the US avarage of 9/10. Israel is guessed to be around 99/100 and 6000/18000 children deaths.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    This is plain wrong and disinformation. Israel has killed way more civilians than is usual or acceptable in a war but nowhere near the numbers you cited.

    See https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_2023_Israel%E2%80%93Hamas_war

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    What? Your link cites 18k and There's still 5k bodies missing in Palestine. The real death count is likely above 20k already.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Yes ? Do you really think only 200 Hamas militants were killed ? Because that's what your ratio would suggest.

    Israel is unnecessarily killing and starving civilians, but once again gross misinformation serves nobody and only justifies more horrors.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    Seeing as 1/3 of the deaths are children and the other 1/3 women it's pretty easy to confirm that there is no targeting involved. It's just genocide.

    Israel was already unecessarily killing and starving civilians before Oct 7. And there's literally no reason they need to starve anyone right now aside israel comitting genocide.

    You seem to have a weird impression of them. Genociding all Palestinians is israels goal, it's not a "byproduct" of the war. Netanyahu has publicly stated this.

    But you're right since they dared to enter Gaza and fight instead of just bombing civilians while Hamas was in the tunnels underground, their civilian casualty rate has probably decreased. Maybe they got 500 now?

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Where did I say that one side didn't want to genocide the other ? Hamas is more public about it and won't even try to justify their civilian killings, but Netanhyu government has made it clear again and again that they are willing to do collective punishment. The high civilian death rate is of course intentional.

    Hamas has also killed plenty of civilians, and they don't even try to pretend that it was accidental. That said you are close to their ratio which is three civilians for every military death.

    Israel's civilian deaths to militant deaths is probably higher due to the usage of bombs (10 civilian deaths per explosion) and intentional starvation but it isn't 100:1.

    Hamas' strategy of hiding behind civilians is also a war crime since it obviously increases the number of civilians killed.

    If you believe Israeli propaganda, they have killed 5000 Hamas militants. Reality is probably smaller than that, but since Hamas intentionally doesn't publish their militant casualties we won't have a good estimation. That said 500 Israeli soldiers have died and seeing the asymmetry in warfare, you can expect much more Hamas militants to have died. I have not been able to find an estimate from an independent source.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    So, here's the thing - which is more awful? A group that publicly says they want to do genocide but is really, really ineffective at it? Or a group that claims they only want to stop bad people, but happens to be really effective at committing genocide while purportedly killing bad people?

    I strongly suspect that the only way Israel can claim that 5k Hamas militants have been killed is by counting every male that appears to be at least a teenager as a militant.

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  • [–] -1 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Frankly both are awful and both should not be allowed to take control of Israel/Palestine. I have no idea what solution there is to this conflict honestly, I just want things to stay somewhat factual.

    I agree that the 5000 figure seems highly improbable. Israel has been quite effective at killing high members of Hamas but I doubt they have killed 5000 out of the 30000 militants.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago

    The solution is two states, where Israel returns to the 1947 UN borders, and allows the Palestinian Authority to have full control of Palestinian territory. Hamas exists as a powerful force because Israel consistently refuses to work towards a two-state solution in good faith.

    The other solution is for the UN to de-militarize both the Palestinians and the Israelis, occupy all the land currently held by Israel, and force a power-sharing agreement and a new constitution so that Israel is no longer a Jewish state. Of course, the last time that Israel was occupied, you had a whole bunch of far-right Jewish terrorists that did things like assassinate diplomat's families.

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Netanyahu literally said publicly that he saw wants to kill all Palestinians including the women and children and his deeds match his words.

    For Hamas that's "more public about" it they sure do their best not to kill kids.

    As long as the demographic chart of Palestinians murdered by the IDF looks like the actual Palestinian population demographic (1/3 women, 1/3 kids) it's safe to assume that there is absolutely no real targeting taking place.

    The IDF has already publicly stated that they count every adult Palestian male as Hamas.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago* (1 child)

    As long as the demographic chart of Palestinians murdered by the IDF looks like the actual Palestinian population demographic (1/3 women, 1/3 kids) it's safe to assume that there is absolutely no real targeting taking place.

    Yes, there is a bump if you look at the Hamas fighting population demographics but it is a minority. The large majority of people killed in this war are civilians there is no doubt about that. I was denying the 1:100 figure. For example Hamas has 1\3 of female victims, yet have a 1:4 casualty rate.

    Netanyahu literally said publicly that he saw wants to kill all Palestinians including the women and children and his deeds match his words.

    No he didn't and you know it. Why lie ?

    Some senior Hamas executives have had such a discourse for Jews before being very softly reprimanded by Hamas but no executive from the Israeli government. There have been plenty of dog whistles, but they are not stupid enough to say it literally.

    Edit : I didn't realize it but you were the person calling for the massacre of civilians in an earlier comment. Explains why you would lie, you need to dehumanise your enemy. I'm not spending more energy on this. You're too far gone.

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