I’m speaking as someone born to people from a non-Abrahamic faith so I don’t know shit about fuck with regards to Christianity, I’m just going off my observations of my hometown and the world around me.

This is mostly anecdotal but I’ve heard Evangelical protestantism has made such in roads in Puerto Rico that I think a majority of the island might actually be Evangelical. I know this is pretty much the case throughout the rest of Latin America. This phenomenon coincides with the rightward shift of the entire region.

Not saying Catholicism is without its skeletons but as the world becomes more cruel, violent, and evil, I can’t help but draw a parallel. I remember reading about de las Casas in High School and the at times moderating influence of Catholicism in Spanish territories, whereas I can find no history of redeeming qualities in the Protestant faith, particularly evangelicism.

This is baby’s first attempt at analysis of Christian theology, so please bear in that mind. My brilliant insights into this are along the lines of ‘the Brazilian national football team is ass now because the players are no longer alcoholic womanizing Catholics’. I’m sure all you Evangelical freaks on hexbear dot net will be foaming at the mouth

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[–] 10 points 1 week ago* (24 children)

There were at most 1200 people sentenced by the catholic inquisition, there were 10s of thousands burned as heretics, so at best 90-95% were done by protestants. This catholic witch hunting myth is part of the propaganda the evangelicals are running.

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  • [–] 20 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (7 children)

    firm numbers on this are plagued by bad methodology (separating inquisitions by area, arbitrary delimits on chronology, 'witches' treated separately from other heretics), it's higher than 1200 in all of europe between 1400-1700.

    but that's besides the point, the vast majority of sectarian violence in the early modern period was not carried out through court processes, the catholic league killed a greater heap of prots on st bartholomew's day than lower bounds estimates for the entire inquisition.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    I was under the impression that there were 11xx sentenced by the inquisition including the americas, but I may be misremembering. Either way if we take the 2000. As a cutoff that's still way more than 9/10 killed by protestants.

    That's the advantage of institutions, the Catholics made an effort to police sn control witchunts, because the existence of witches goes against catholic dogma. The protestants had no such thing.

    As for the masacres of rebels, that's war, a war that the protestants started, ir anything, since the protestants weren't whipped out, and are still causing problems now, the problem with Catholics is that they were uncommitted to stamping the protestant heretics in the cradle. The didn't do enough. The line should be Catholics are losers.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 week ago* (3 children)

    As for the masacres of rebels, that's war, a war that [they] started, ir anything, since [they] weren't whipped out, and are still causing problems now, the problem with [politically dominant group in region] is that they were uncommitted to stamping the heretics in the cradle. The didn't do enough.

    speech-top

    zionist-despair


    also who upvoted that, bring back the consideration of banning people for upvotes.

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  • [–] [S] 5 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    I am literally voting everything in here because I have no idea wtf you all are talking about but it all sounds very interesting

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago*

    You have one person with experience from both Catholic and Protestant viewpoints who is characterizing the different kinds of Protestants and giving lots of examples of how Christianity developed in Europe and the Americas by force... and then you have another person who splits hairs about methods of execution, references satirical movies as an actual source, says "it was all the Protestants' fault, and if it was Catholics doing it, then the Protestants deserved it, they are demons".

    Seems pretty equivalent to me. shrug-outta-hecks

    On a serious note, if you want to learn more about the subject of religious intolerance in America, I recommend Constantine's Sword.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    1 the example given was a masacre that involved a marriage between European nobility. Who had just defeated the french crown. I wouldn't call them oppressed minorities any more than I would call peter thiel an oppressed minority.

    2- most protestant princes converted because the church was a check on their power, they are no more oppressed minorities than libertarians.

    3 false equivalence, the Zionists started it, they could be chilling in Germany but they decided to start a colony.

    4- false equivalence both the protestants and Catholics were fairly even during the reformation, in a way the Zionists and Palestine are not.

    5 I have 400 years of hindsight of seeing what the protestants have been up to, and frankly yhea, they are a problem.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 child)

    The line should be Catholics are losers

    yeah, lmao. i do want to push back a little on fighting rebellion being a distinct intervention from suppression of heresy via ecclesiastic authorities though. inquisition processes usually followed religion-based insurrection, which got the leadership and most militant partisans, but left the lower-activity, sympathetic, and influenced (by literature/heretic sermons & cultural practice). the church was a security apparatus that stayed in areas after open rebellion was defeated to monitor and root-out remaining grains. examples would be after the rebellion of alpujarras in spain, after the friulian revolt in the venetian terraferma, and in waldensian areas of provence (the ones that could be militarily dominated by nearby secular forces).

    war that the protestants started

    i too am a calvinist truther kim-blood

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  • [–] 8 points 1 week ago (12 children)

    Can't count them as heretic burnings when the targeted killings were done at swordpoint with the blessing of the king and the pope think-about-it

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (11 children)
  • [–] 13 points 1 week ago (10 children)

    "It wasn't a heretic burning, it was a heretic slicing! There's a big difference! Anyway they started it by not believing the true faith of the king and the nobles and the priests, so they had it coming and deserve what they got."

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (9 children)

    When someone brings up heretic burnings or witch hunts, it evokes a very particular image, of a mob of ignorant peasants, burning a woman because she turned you into a newt, or the local village healer being put to death because you should put your faith in god and not those flowers for taken.

    The subtext is that this represent the "medieval times tm" catholicism in contrast to the yud-rational "modern tm" protestantism.

    The reality is that the people doing that were protestant 90+% of the time. Protestants are the ignorant savages.

    You are trying to make an equivalence between doing adventurism on a bunch of rebellious princes, who frankly deserved it. or sacking a city and the above. It is a dishonest and disingenuous argument.

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  • [–] 9 points 1 week ago* (8 children)

    When someone brings up heretic burnings or witch hunts, it evokes a very particular image, of a mob of ignorant peasants, burning a woman because she turned you into a newt,

    The reality is that the people doing that were protestant 90+% of the time. Protestants are the ignorant savages.

    Quoting your ahistorical, ignorant, and sectarian takes so you can't edit them out.

    In Europe they had a tradition of slaughtering heretics (and Jews, and Muslims) going back up to a thousand years before the Protestant Reformation even happened. Thanks to my Catholic education I can name offhand a bunch of groups slaughtered by Catholics who weren't simply "followers of a rebel prince": the Cathars, the Albigensians, the Anabaptists, the Huguenots, the Hussites, the Jews in the Balkans during the Crusades, thousands of Levantine civilians during the Crusades, a bunch of citizens of Constantinople for some reason, thousands of Iberian civilians during the "Reconquista". There were 900 years of European Christian savagery before proto-Protestants were even a thing. If anything, Protestants just inherited this penchant for systematic violence, and this happened piecemeal on a case-by-case basis.

    You've reached the level of Mad Online where you're cherry-picking to defend the powerful against threats from the powerless, and then you move on to sourcing your own personal vibes, and Monty Python. Literally making apologia for the most powerful institution in Europe for over a millennium.

    Protestantism was a form of Christianity that in its emergence paralleled the overthrow of the landed aristocracy by the bourgeoisie. It is a broad category, not monolithic, and you can't paint them all with a sectarian brush while claiming to be reasoning in good faith.

    Idk maybe try letting people believe what they want to believe without smearing them, as long as their beliefs aren't outright classist or reactionary.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    That's the implication when you single out the Catholics for heretic burnings. That's the popular notion, and you are the one spreading that ahistorical take, when I'm actually the one correcting it.

    Feudal aristocracies are a regressive system. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that because of its dogma and centralized nature the Catholic church served as a check on those impulses more often than not.

    For example the militant religious orders more notable for their excesses, the templars and the neurons,were ultimately branded as heretics.

    And that's precisely why those princes adopted protestantism. Because they wanted absolute power. It coincided with the rise of the burgers and the nation state, because such power was not posible before those changes.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    the Catholic church served as a check on those impulses more often than not.

    Sometimes. "More often than not" is a bold claim.

    For example the militant religious orders more notable for their excesses, the templars and the neurons,were ultimately branded as heretics.

    A tragedy that keeps repeating in human history. "We've changed our minds about these people we supported for decades, they're not actually our fellows and comrades, they are traitors. Forget what we said about getting behind them, listen to our sole authority that they are bad."

    Catholics have Columbus and Pizarro amd Cortés, and dozens of other genocidal conquistadors. One de las Casas does not absolve Catholics from scrutiny. If you have a nuanced and contextual approach to Catholics you must have the same for Protestants.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    Catholics have Columbus and Pizarro amd Cortés, and dozens of other genocidal conquistadors. One de las Casas

    Ok, I am literally a child in this debate so don’t @ me but couldn’t you argue de las Casas was an actual clergyman unlike Pizarro, Columbus, and Cortes who were just military?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    de las casa was actually both. a conquistador-turned-ordered monk.

    i think the point is still quite salient though, de las casas was not the first representative of the church in america and many within the church were quite content with what was happening in america--to heathens--as it were. it's quite right to question the moderating influence of the catholic church when it appeared late and in actuality quite feebly (when its representatives were even interested in the new laws)

    what is most responsible for spanish colonization not totally exterminating native peoples and ways of life is not de las casas and directives from the metropole, but a heap of credible indigenous power. limitations on colonial excesses was more about preventing uprising than it was humanitarianism, and though the usual historical overview is "spain conquered x, x, x, countries lets move on to the 18th century already" rebellion was constant after the conquests and very often not overcome by spanish military force. accomidation, detente, and autonomy with native groups underwrite the Big Maps of spanish colonies in america.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    It was enough of a check that a lot of princes converted to protestantism to "figth foreign influence"

    I agree it's not perfect, but it's telling that the people who were excommunicated for being too unrestrained like the teutons, or the guy who wrote the hammer of the witches are representative of the protestants of the time.

    And yes, nobody like the Spanish, the Spanish don't like themselves, but this originally wasn't about wether colonialism was bad, or wether catholicism was bad, it was about wether catholicism was a restraining force on witch hunts and burning heretics, and given 90%+ were done by protestants, I say it was.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    This was originally about Catholicism being comparable to Protestantism in how bad it was. The stem comment literally started with "catholicism sucks a heap of shit too, pal" and you responded to that, defending the honor of your preferred ecclesiastical body with unsubstantiated allegations.

    and given 90%+ were done by protestants

    You keep spewing that out with nothing to back it up.

    Literally the most famous person ever burned at the stake was a Roman Catholic, executed by other Roman Catholics, as part of a decades-long war that the Roman Catholic Church failed (for a second time) to preclude, as many would suppose to be the function of an international/interethnic political religious entity.

    The Catholic Church exercised widespread violent pressure against pagans and Muslims and Jews (and sometimes even Eastern Orthodox Christians!), and was a bulwark of patriarchy.

    Burning at the stake was practiced and common enough before Protestantism even became a thing. In fact, execution by fire was in practice pre-Luther for longer than it was in practice post-Luther. You can say that Calvinists and Lutherans (just two of many kinds of Protestants) did it too, but to say that it was exclusively typical to Protestants is completely wrong.

    If we're going to recognize that Protestants only started controlling states and armies later on, and compare apples to apples, consider that when an American (Protestant) president started his second large-scale war, and claimed to have consulted "a higher father" about it, the bishops of his denomination vehemently refuted and disavowed the idea that such a war would be approved by God. There are plenty of Protestant denominations that can rightfully claim to have never condoned war or genocide, and some that can even claim to have never condoned violence of any sort.

    Protestants are a mixed bag, but you certainly don't see Protestant churches adorned in silver from the Potosí mines or anything like that. In absolute terms they are nowhere near as blood-soaked as the Catholic Church, and in relative terms many of the Protestant churches are rather clean (some, not others).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    Anabaptists, the Huguenots

    those two are protestants, the anabaptists were an unusual and somewhat independent tendency that has few modern descendents, though anabaptism as a component of faith is quite popular now. huguenots were just french calvinists.

    albigensians and cathars are the same thing, and they're part of a heap of christian dualists including the bogomils and paulicans.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 week ago (1 child)

    The witch hunting was severe in many catholic countries besides Spain, especially France. I'm not sure how many people they killed but I think it was much more than Spain.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago*

    To an extent yes areas without the direct supervision of the church were more prone to persecuting innocents, that was sort my original point; that witch and heretic burning in Europe, was not so much a catholic problem but a customary European problem, which was far more of an issue in areas were the church was less important, and even more so on protestant regions.

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