I’m speaking as someone born to people from a non-Abrahamic faith so I don’t know shit about fuck with regards to Christianity, I’m just going off my observations of my hometown and the world around me.

This is mostly anecdotal but I’ve heard Evangelical protestantism has made such in roads in Puerto Rico that I think a majority of the island might actually be Evangelical. I know this is pretty much the case throughout the rest of Latin America. This phenomenon coincides with the rightward shift of the entire region.

Not saying Catholicism is without its skeletons but as the world becomes more cruel, violent, and evil, I can’t help but draw a parallel. I remember reading about de las Casas in High School and the at times moderating influence of Catholicism in Spanish territories, whereas I can find no history of redeeming qualities in the Protestant faith, particularly evangelicism.

This is baby’s first attempt at analysis of Christian theology, so please bear in that mind. My brilliant insights into this are along the lines of ‘the Brazilian national football team is ass now because the players are no longer alcoholic womanizing Catholics’. I’m sure all you Evangelical freaks on hexbear dot net will be foaming at the mouth

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[–] 9 points 1 week ago* (8 children)

When someone brings up heretic burnings or witch hunts, it evokes a very particular image, of a mob of ignorant peasants, burning a woman because she turned you into a newt,

The reality is that the people doing that were protestant 90+% of the time. Protestants are the ignorant savages.

Quoting your ahistorical, ignorant, and sectarian takes so you can't edit them out.

In Europe they had a tradition of slaughtering heretics (and Jews, and Muslims) going back up to a thousand years before the Protestant Reformation even happened. Thanks to my Catholic education I can name offhand a bunch of groups slaughtered by Catholics who weren't simply "followers of a rebel prince": the Cathars, the Albigensians, the Anabaptists, the Huguenots, the Hussites, the Jews in the Balkans during the Crusades, thousands of Levantine civilians during the Crusades, a bunch of citizens of Constantinople for some reason, thousands of Iberian civilians during the "Reconquista". There were 900 years of European Christian savagery before proto-Protestants were even a thing. If anything, Protestants just inherited this penchant for systematic violence, and this happened piecemeal on a case-by-case basis.

You've reached the level of Mad Online where you're cherry-picking to defend the powerful against threats from the powerless, and then you move on to sourcing your own personal vibes, and Monty Python. Literally making apologia for the most powerful institution in Europe for over a millennium.

Protestantism was a form of Christianity that in its emergence paralleled the overthrow of the landed aristocracy by the bourgeoisie. It is a broad category, not monolithic, and you can't paint them all with a sectarian brush while claiming to be reasoning in good faith.

Idk maybe try letting people believe what they want to believe without smearing them, as long as their beliefs aren't outright classist or reactionary.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago (6 children)

    That's the implication when you single out the Catholics for heretic burnings. That's the popular notion, and you are the one spreading that ahistorical take, when I'm actually the one correcting it.

    Feudal aristocracies are a regressive system. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing that because of its dogma and centralized nature the Catholic church served as a check on those impulses more often than not.

    For example the militant religious orders more notable for their excesses, the templars and the neurons,were ultimately branded as heretics.

    And that's precisely why those princes adopted protestantism. Because they wanted absolute power. It coincided with the rise of the burgers and the nation state, because such power was not posible before those changes.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 week ago (5 children)

    the Catholic church served as a check on those impulses more often than not.

    Sometimes. "More often than not" is a bold claim.

    For example the militant religious orders more notable for their excesses, the templars and the neurons,were ultimately branded as heretics.

    A tragedy that keeps repeating in human history. "We've changed our minds about these people we supported for decades, they're not actually our fellows and comrades, they are traitors. Forget what we said about getting behind them, listen to our sole authority that they are bad."

    Catholics have Columbus and Pizarro amd Cortés, and dozens of other genocidal conquistadors. One de las Casas does not absolve Catholics from scrutiny. If you have a nuanced and contextual approach to Catholics you must have the same for Protestants.

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  • [–] [S] 4 points 1 week ago* (2 children)

    Catholics have Columbus and Pizarro amd Cortés, and dozens of other genocidal conquistadors. One de las Casas

    Ok, I am literally a child in this debate so don’t @ me but couldn’t you argue de las Casas was an actual clergyman unlike Pizarro, Columbus, and Cortes who were just military?

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  • [–] 3 points 1 week ago

    de las casa was actually both. a conquistador-turned-ordered monk.

    i think the point is still quite salient though, de las casas was not the first representative of the church in america and many within the church were quite content with what was happening in america--to heathens--as it were. it's quite right to question the moderating influence of the catholic church when it appeared late and in actuality quite feebly (when its representatives were even interested in the new laws)

    what is most responsible for spanish colonization not totally exterminating native peoples and ways of life is not de las casas and directives from the metropole, but a heap of credible indigenous power. limitations on colonial excesses was more about preventing uprising than it was humanitarianism, and though the usual historical overview is "spain conquered x, x, x, countries lets move on to the 18th century already" rebellion was constant after the conquests and very often not overcome by spanish military force. accomidation, detente, and autonomy with native groups underwrite the Big Maps of spanish colonies in america.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago (1 child)

    It was enough of a check that a lot of princes converted to protestantism to "figth foreign influence"

    I agree it's not perfect, but it's telling that the people who were excommunicated for being too unrestrained like the teutons, or the guy who wrote the hammer of the witches are representative of the protestants of the time.

    And yes, nobody like the Spanish, the Spanish don't like themselves, but this originally wasn't about wether colonialism was bad, or wether catholicism was bad, it was about wether catholicism was a restraining force on witch hunts and burning heretics, and given 90%+ were done by protestants, I say it was.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 week ago

    This was originally about Catholicism being comparable to Protestantism in how bad it was. The stem comment literally started with "catholicism sucks a heap of shit too, pal" and you responded to that, defending the honor of your preferred ecclesiastical body with unsubstantiated allegations.

    and given 90%+ were done by protestants

    You keep spewing that out with nothing to back it up.

    Literally the most famous person ever burned at the stake was a Roman Catholic, executed by other Roman Catholics, as part of a decades-long war that the Roman Catholic Church failed (for a second time) to preclude, as many would suppose to be the function of an international/interethnic political religious entity.

    The Catholic Church exercised widespread violent pressure against pagans and Muslims and Jews (and sometimes even Eastern Orthodox Christians!), and was a bulwark of patriarchy.

    Burning at the stake was practiced and common enough before Protestantism even became a thing. In fact, execution by fire was in practice pre-Luther for longer than it was in practice post-Luther. You can say that Calvinists and Lutherans (just two of many kinds of Protestants) did it too, but to say that it was exclusively typical to Protestants is completely wrong.

    If we're going to recognize that Protestants only started controlling states and armies later on, and compare apples to apples, consider that when an American (Protestant) president started his second large-scale war, and claimed to have consulted "a higher father" about it, the bishops of his denomination vehemently refuted and disavowed the idea that such a war would be approved by God. There are plenty of Protestant denominations that can rightfully claim to have never condoned war or genocide, and some that can even claim to have never condoned violence of any sort.

    Protestants are a mixed bag, but you certainly don't see Protestant churches adorned in silver from the Potosí mines or anything like that. In absolute terms they are nowhere near as blood-soaked as the Catholic Church, and in relative terms many of the Protestant churches are rather clean (some, not others).

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  • [–] 1 point 1 week ago

    Anabaptists, the Huguenots

    those two are protestants, the anabaptists were an unusual and somewhat independent tendency that has few modern descendents, though anabaptism as a component of faith is quite popular now. huguenots were just french calvinists.

    albigensians and cathars are the same thing, and they're part of a heap of christian dualists including the bogomils and paulicans.

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