Honestly kinda interested in what the new zones will be like and whether or not the WoW dev team isn't creatively bankrupt on creating a micro-transaction treadmill for player.

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[–] 13 points 1 day ago (9 children)

The Bill Cosby suite company is weird about women? surprised-pika

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  • [–] 6 points 1 day ago* (7 children)

    I don't know. They're fine in Overwatch imo. For some reason their WoW shit is just very stripperella. I have no other way to describe it, every single body type is this:

    They all look THE SAME

    Vs Overwatch:

    Same company, some of the same design people. But Overwatch is way better about this and it doesn't turn me away like WoW does.

    I know they're not both MMOs though. For MMOs I've generally played anime ones or FFXIV, I'm probably going to try Guild Wars 3 though.

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  • [–] [S] 3 points 20 hours ago

    Yeah WoW def has an issue with body types with it's earlier content but I've always liked Tauren (big minotaur people) and Pandarens (there's also the Kul Tirans having two different body size toggles that got introduced post Cata expansion)

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  • [–] 6 points 1 day ago (5 children)

    While I agree with your sentiment that WoW lacks variation in feminine-presenting body types, your image shows 5 characters with only 3 races. The troll, orc, etc are more human shaped in the feminine presenting model.

    Blizzard's low-effort solution to this problem was renaming the character models from "male" and "female" to "body 1" and "body 2" in 2022.

    Each race also has different combat bonuses, so many of the more try-hard players will choose their race based on that rather than cosmetic reasons.

    Many of the try-hard players would also choose the feminine presenting body because "smaller hit box" reasoning. Though, all characters now have the same hitbox size. I think there may have been different hitbox sizes only in early versions of Vanilla WoW.

    When I played WoW, I chose my character to be Dranei Male, which is either the largest or second largest character model, next to Tauren. Once I was in high-end content, I found that it was difficult to see when I was standing in harmful ground effects. I resorted to using consumables that shrank my character size so that I could have more visual perspective.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 day ago* (4 children)

    I don't include the monster races because they're always going to be drastically different by default. I don't really count Lalafell when looking at "female body types" in FFXIV for the same reason. Their gender is potato.

    I think most of this problem is probably a tech issue though where it's to do with making sure cosmetics fit characters with little to no effort. But I hate that, it's a cop out and these mmos need to be designed from the ground up for gear to be able to fit a wide variety of shapes automatically. Their internal tools need to automatically change the shape of the gear so they don't have to fit it to 10 races with a variety of body sliders instead.

    I hate the hit box conversation. Just make the hitbox the same. It's a non-issue.

    Anyway judging by concept art I'm not going to feel this way about GW3, but we will see.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 day ago (3 children)

    I don't think it's fair to refer to horde as "monster races". In a lot of ways, the aliance and the humans represent fascistic tendencies with considering Horde to be inferior or "monster" based on their appearance.

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  • [–] 3 points 23 hours ago (2 children)

    How tf am i supposed to reply to that

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  • [–] 4 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (1 child)

    I don't know. I'm not accusing you of anything. The image you showed has 3 races. 2 humans, 2 blood elfs, and 1 draenei. I don't understand how an orc or troll (or dwarf or gnome) is a monster but a blood elf would not be. I don't know what you mean by monster. A draenei is a humanoid goat from space. To my understanding, the draenei are the only extraterrestrial species in WoW. Draenei have hooves instead of feet.

    Again, I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm pointing out tropes in the game lore. WoW is split into two factions, that are largely at war with each other. The lore tries to frame it as "both sides are bad". The game is not human-centric.

    Humans in WoW would consider Orcs to be monsters and Orcs in WoW would consider humans to be monsters.

    If by monster, you meant "NPC". All the models in the screenshot that I posted are player races.

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  • [–] 2 points 21 hours ago

    By monster I mean anything that is significantly deviant enough away from a human form to not be worth considering in a conversation about female body types. The issue is primarily that of the human-like body types all being playboy bunny shaped.

    I don't know how to explain it? An orc isn't worth talking about here, nor is a dwarf or a gnome. They're alternate species entirely and I just don't really register them as part of the conversation because their form is so far detached from humanity it's not worth discussing in a conversation about humanoid depictions of sexuality.

    It feels difficult to communicate the specifics of it. I've not really considered more precise words because I've never had to.

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  • [–] 5 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

    While there were certainly issues with unaddressed sexual harassment at Blizzard (which you'll see in the quote below), that particular thing is a nothingburger, and it damaged the careers of people that had no allegations against them but had the bad luck of being in that photo. The photo and name predated the Cosby allegations gaining widespread public attention by a year, but this was lost in the subsequent lawsuit and sensational coverage.

    From Chapter 28 of Play Nice by Jason Schreier:

    Extended quotation, emphasis mineNothing was more illustrative of Blizzard’s cultural changes than BlizzCon, where the alcohol flowed and fans perceived employees as rock stars. Sometimes this was harmless. “It was hard to walk through there without fans hugging you and wanting to take a picture,” said designer Greg Street. Other times, it was surreal. “There’s a picture of me and Dave Grohl signing boobs together,” said artist Joeyray Hall. “If a girl puts boobs in your face and says sign them, you sign them.” And every so often, situations would get so out of control that Blizzard would have to tell employees to stop sleeping with fans.

    Michele Morrow, an actress and writer, was attending BlizzCon in 2013 when she got a glimpse of the convention’s uglier side. The night before the show, Morrow was out to dinner with Dave Kosak, a top designer on World of Warcraft, and his wife Crystal when a drunken man stumbled over. “He was super wasted, and he was hitting on me with wild abandon, saying ridiculous, embarrassing things,” Morrow recalled. This was particularly uncomfortable because the man was Kosak’s boss.

    Alex Afrasiabi, who had started as a quest designer during the early days of World of Warcraft, had always played a starring role in Blizzard’s whisper network. Even though he’d joined the company with no industry experience—Blizzard found him because he led a successful EverQuest guild—he proved to be a capable designer and rose through the ranks to become the creative director of several World of Warcraft expansions. He was handsome, charismatic, and brilliant at using the game’s tools to implement new content. He also had a reputation for drinking heavily, insulting subordinates, and engaging in questionable behavior with female employees. Now he was drunkenly proposing to Morrow and promising her career opportunities. “He told me if I married him, I’d have the keys to Blizzard, whatever the fuck that means,” she said. After some back-and-forth, Kosak stood up and guided Afrasiabi away from the table.

    The next night, Morrow and the Kosaks were preparing to head to Afrasiabi’s hotel room, at which Blizzard staff would convene during BlizzCon evenings to get away from the chaos of the Hilton bar. They called it the “Cosby suite” due to an inside joke that had started some time earlier, when the carpet in one of their hotel rooms looked like legendary comedian Bill Cosby’s sweater. On a group chat with several other World of Warcraft designers including Afrasiabi, Kosak wrote that he was “gathering the hot chixx for the Coz,” referring to his wife and Morrow, who were standing with him. When they arrived at the suite, Morrow again had to fend off unwanted sexual advances from a drunken Afrasiabi, but the night was otherwise uneventful.

    A year later, in October 2014, a stand-up routine by comedian Hannibal Burress resurfaced oldremoved accusations against Bill Cosby that led to widespread press, new allegations, and criminal proceedings. “I guess we won’t be calling it the Cosby suite anymore,” Kosak recalled joking to his wife.

    But the name resurfaced in 2021 when the California lawsuit declared that “Afrasiabi was so known to engage in harassment of females that his suite was nicknamed the Crosby suite after allegedremoved Bill Crosby.” This was not true, and the misspelling added to the overall sense of carelessness, but the allegation went viral. A subsequent article on the gaming website Kotaku shared a photo from Afrasiabi’s Facebook showing a group of eight smiling Blizzard employees on a bed, gathered around a framed picture of Bill Cosby—a photo that had seemed harmless when it was taken that evening in 2013 but was horrifying eight years later. The article, which also published a screenshot of the group texts, reported that Cosby had been accused ofremoved in the early 2000s but did not mention that the allegations only became widespread knowledge a year after the photo was taken, nor did it specify that the “hot chixx” text was referring to Kosak’s wife and friend. “It was just surreal,” said Morrow. “Everyone was being unknowingly offended for me as the subject of this text when Dave is the one who protected me and did exactly what any man should do when their boss is being a creep.”

    Kosak had left Blizzard in the fall of 2020 to become a creative director at a small company called Deviation Games. When the Kotaku article hit, several of his colleagues complained to management and said they no longer wanted to work with him, according to a person familiar with what happened. The studio hired an attorney to conduct a four-month investigation and although it turned up nothing else, Deviation fired Kosak. In an interview for this book, Kosak declined to comment on the circumstances of his departure but said he had faced professional repercussions due to the Kotaku article. “When negotiating for jobs I still hear about how I have ‘a PR problem,’” he said. “Nobody actually accused me of any wrongdoing. But my value as a person—at least in the corporate world—has gone down.”

    Paul Cazarez, who spent fourteen years at Blizzard before leaving in 2019, was also depicted in the Kotaku article posing alongside the framed photo of Bill Cosby. He said that his employer, ZeniMax Online Studios, put him on leave in the summer of 2021 after the article went live and then let him go a few weeks later without explanation. He said he had tried to explain that none of them knew about the Cosby allegations at the time but he was told that a teammate felt uncomfortable working with him. Later, when applying for new jobs, he ran into awkward situations—like recruiters canceling interviews an hour before they were scheduled, as if they had just been googling his name. “When I talk to friends and family, it’s baffling to them,” Cazarez said. “A photo has caused this much disruption in your career—in everybody’s career.”

    The “Cosby suite” became a catchall term representing everything that was wrong with Blizzard, much to the frustration of people who had been there. “I can’t speak for everyone else’s experiences, but when I was in that room, there was nothing nefarious except for Alex,” said Morrow. Yet at the same time, women at Blizzard felt like the lawsuit was correct about one important element of the story: Afrasiabi was allowed to remain in a position of power despite his misconduct.

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