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How do we deprogram Europeans on Ukraine’s “independence” struggle (hexbear.net)
submitted 1 day ago by to c/askchapo@hexbear.net
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Anyone living in (Western) Europe will know that European “support for Ukraine’s independence” is being used as an excuse for mass austerity and militarisation. Talk about this with the average European though, and they will repeat a bunch of false information about Ukraine and the war:

  • They frame Ukrainian nationalism as a liberation movement instead of the fascist movement that it is at its core and inception
  • Russia is called irrational and unwilling to negotiate, so military domination is the only way out
  • diplomatic solutions are said to have failed because of Russia’s unwillingness, not because of EU/US/UK unwillingness to settle
  • Russia is described as a threat to European “independence”

The EU is spending a lot of money to keep this facade alive, so any internet search engine will direct any critical questions to EU sponsored websites and research to “combat misinformation”.

There is a growing anti war movement that challenges the need for austerity and militarisation, but it still struggles to gain popular support because there have not yet been any successful attempts to challenge the views that I wrote above.

I recognise that any successful funnel to challenge these beliefs will be met with aggressive attempts to be disarmed through accusations of being Russian propaganda, but I still want to pose the question on what you people think are good sources to start deprogramming the European working class on this issue. I know that there are many good sources on the actual situation on the ground, but due to the slander that most of those people and organisations have faced so far it is difficult to convince the average European that they are not Russian paid propagandists. So ideally there would be some place that really take someone by the hand to very carefully dissect what they have been lied about, in a similar way that the website www.decolonizepalestine.com does for Palestine.

Also I wonder if people are aware of any (diaspora) Ukrainian initiatives to challenge the misguided view that most Europeans have about Ukraine?

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[–] [S] 10 points 20 hours ago (3 children)

What would you say is the best messaging for an anti war movement? Should they just say the truth and accept that their reach will be small because they will be dismissed as Russian propagandists? Or is it better to not address Ukraine too much in their messaging to be able to get a larger movement that struggles with conflicting messaging within the movement?

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  • [–] 16 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

    I don't know tbh. Our approach has been that a war over borders ultimately just determines which group of (m/b/tr)illionaires gets to exploit which group of people at the end of it. The people living on either side of those lines will live the same lives they live now, with the same workplaces, the same houses, the same jobs. What matters is that they're alive and not dead for some war over lines on a map.

    The anti-war position is thusly the one that seeks to save the most lives. The DEFEAT RUSSIA position seeks to spend lives.

    One position cares about the people. The other position is a nationalist position that cares about the borders of a state over the lives of the people.

    I stress that this only really works with leftists that have open minds. Everyone else dismisses it as russian propaganda, they are fully bought into the war and won't be brought out of it until some post-war realisations occur. I believe we can only remain consistent and build up a historical argument and documentation so that future narratives can be won instead.

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  • [–] [S] 7 points 19 hours ago (1 child)

    This is the way that most militant leftist organisations frame the issue, it’s a good framework but it requires a basic understanding of class struggle that most people lack.

    I just notice that there are many people in the places I organize at who are very willing to take an anti war position. But they stumble over the Ukraine issue because they’ve been led to believe that we are helping Ukraine to stay independent from imperialist Russia and that Russia is heavily oppressing Ukrainians who live in the occupied territories. I’ve been able to turn some people around but I wish there was a way to do that on a larger scale, and I wish I could help people with better sources of information that address all the basic misconceptions.

    Generally I think you’re right about preparing for the future. It’s just that I’m currently organizing in a context that overlaps with the anti war/anti austerity movement and thus have to engage with people on this subject constantly and get frustrated by the vague messaging from the larger anti war orgs.

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  • [–] 8 points 18 hours ago*

    I think the biggest problem we have is that the natural position the average anti-war person lands on is "the invader is wrong".

    What this results in is that people think the anti-war position is "the invader must stop or be defeated".

    The issue is that people who are pro-war believe they are actually the anti-war position because Russia is the invader. They are correct that Russia is the invader, but they are incorrect about their anti-war position.

    If someone can find a way to adjust people's perception of this and the way the average person naturally believes that opposition to invasion is the anti-war position, then we would be able to get somewhere. It is a pre-requisite before we could make advancements on turning people around.

    There's that chinese meme that called the supporters of both Ukraine + Palestine "anti warism" and it's a fair assessment of what those people believe they are doing. Incorrectly so.

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