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[–] 23 points 1 day ago (20 children)

Hate to defend Netflix, but this isn't even on them. Good shows take time and forcing the process hurts the quality. This is an industry wide problem, and fans of all "prestige" dramas complain about this, regardless of platform. People seem to forget just how terrible TV was in the olden days pre-Sopranos when every show pumped out their requisite 24 episodes every year, with most of it being unwatchable filler.

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  • [–] 38 points 1 day ago (5 children)

    Counterpoint: a lot of the "unwatchable filler" was a fun opportunity to break free of plot constraints and experiment, and longer seasons meant longer-term, more consistent jobs. Aren't we supposed to be pro-labour around here?

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  • [–] 23 points 1 day ago*

    Make 👏 TV 👏 Bad 👏 Again 👏

    My favorite part of IMDB is finding out that every show that I remember as a huge part of my childhood was actually like 6 episodes in total, all garbage.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 day ago (3 children)

    It was mostly hyper formulaic episodic slop that went nowhere and meant nothing, and most of those shows still only got a season or two vs now when a successful show becomes at least a decade long slop factory.

    Like The Sopranos was notable for being the first TV show to experiment with the idea of having "a plot" in which "things actually happen", even though going back and watching it it still looks very formulaic and episodic particularly in the first season. It's like the Citizen Kane of prestige TV slop. And I mean I'm obviously exaggerating a bit for comedic effect but goddamn was the entire model of TV production so fucking bad before The Sopranos popularized the idea of actually progressing the fucking story episode to episode, like as bad as the modern Netflix slop model of "write every episode with the assumption the viewer isn't actively viewing the screen so everyone explains what's going on all the time" is TV used to be based on the model of "assume all episodes are viewed in a random order as reruns and the viewer is someone who's never seen the show before and just tuned in at the last ad break" which sucks even worse.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 day ago (2 children)

    Like The Sopranos was notable for being the first TV show to experiment with the idea of having "a plot" in which "things actually happen",

    Soaps had it beat by several decades, and if were talking about preplanned arcs, Deep Space 9 was ahead of it. Thougb tbh I'm not sure how much of the Sopranos was preplanned, given how it ended.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 day ago

    That was the bit I was exaggerating for comedic effect, yes. It was the series that really popularized moving more story into an ongoing multi-episode/seasonal plot instead of being quite so episodic all the time, but it didn't literally invent the concept.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 day ago

    This is just a side effect of not understanding the genre. Now they try and make shows into episodic movies, but movies take time. Good old TV shows understood the parameters they were working in. We need to make a lot of these things on a budget, so we gotta make the most use of the sets we already have and the characters we've already established.

    That's why the best older TV shows tend to take place in limited environments with core casts where it's easy to understand their relationship. Star Trek, takes place mostly on one star ship, so we can reuse sets a lot, and the cast is mostly the crew of the ship and we understand their roles and ranks, got it. Malcolm in the Middle, follows a single family, easy, and most episodes take place primarily either in their home, or at the school the kids are attending, and whenever they do need to go to another location they can pretty easily use sets from other shows (I think the ranch Francis worked on was from another show for example). Trying to have these sprawling epic narratives on TV was always sometimes that was gonna work for like mini-series type stuff were it's one or two seasons, like Andor, but pulling it off for anything longer than that is going to be a struggle.

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  • [–] 28 points 1 day ago

    Seasons 1-4 of the sopranos came out 1 year apart, with 2 years between 4-5 and 5-6, with another year for the second half of 6. And each of those seasons was 13 episodes long, except 6 which was 12 + 9. 86 episodes over 8 years.

    Stranger Things by comparison, was a 1 year gap, then 2, then 3, then 3 again. And each of those seasons were 8 or 9 episodes. 42 episodes over 9 years. Half as many episodes with an extra year.

    I’m also not against filler episodes - They’re used to flesh out the world and the characters, as well as giving the writers and actors time to find their groove and figure out how to write/play those characters; Think of how many shows only get good after the first season. Modern shows frequently get cancelled before they’re able to find that. Filler episodes also used to give junior writers more experience.

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  • [–] 15 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    I don't have any evidence of this so I could be wrong, but I get the sense that a lot of platforms are extremely risk averse to where they won't allow any work to be started on Season 2 until Season 1 is the mega hit they're expecting. Which is why so many of their shows get cancelled after 1 season. This extends production time because they aren't filming parts of different episodes concurrently and already accumulating footage they need for later seasons like many other shows do/did.

    I don't think the wait between seasons needs to be as long, they just need to work more efficiently and trust/recognize when they have something they think will hit and when they don't. I imagine most shows people hate are also hated by the cast and crew before it airs, just like game devs know when they're working on and are going to release a bad/compromised game.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 day ago

    The networks' sweaty need for big hit flagship shows is really screwing them over. As soon as some executive decides that X is going to be the big hit then it gets more and more producers attached trying to get a cut of the profits, then they all put their ideas in which bloats the entire project, and then they're given too big of a special effects budget so they get lazy in the live production, and then they don't actually have enough money for all the sfx they decided on so they do reshoots which bloats even more, and requires new, worse sfx from a different studio because the first one is now in arbitration for unpaid wages. Meanwhile, if they think the show might have a moderate amount of success they just leave it and it ends up being a better production across the board.

    the contrast between the Dance of Dragons show and the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms show highlights this one for me but I'm sure netflix and amazon both have a zillion examples at this point

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  • [–] 21 points 1 day ago (6 children)

    nah i've seen season 3-6 of TNG it's mostly great, and there are like four bad episodes of ds9 total.

    season 2-7 of the simpsons are almost all bangers too

    bad tv was bad, but some of the best episodes of TV are bottle shows where they had to write under constraints.

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  • [–] 7 points 1 day ago (5 children)

    But those shows are the rare exceptions, with a diehard fanbase that still watches the classic episodes 30 years later. I think a better comparison would be The X-Files vs Breaking Bad/Better Call Saul. The first couple of seasons of the X-Files were truly creative and inspired, but you saw the quality decline as the seasons went on due to Gilligan being forced into the annual schedule. When FX granted him additional time (and money) to realize his vision, he created masterpieces that only got better up to their finales.

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  • [–] 18 points 1 day ago (1 child)

    But those shows are the rare exceptions

    I would say that good shows are still a rare exception. There were a few great shows in a sea of slop then and a few great shows in a sea of slop now with the biggest difference being that the sea of slop is significantly more vast now. The changes in the medium from old school TV to streaming sites has allowed for a little more of a blurring of the line between movies and TV shows in that prestige TV is higher budget and does take longer to produce, closer to how only movies used to be produced, and it's fine that there are more shows with higher production value and longer wait times between seasons, but that doesn't mean that TV is great now and was bad in the past.

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  • [–] 8 points 1 day ago

    Yeah, it's much easier for people to avoid slop these days. Back in the day, you only had so many channels so sometimes you'd end up just picking the best of bad choices to get you through the hour or half hour. Good shows tended to run long.

    Netflix otoh cancels huge shows, or cuts them to 2 seasons, 10 eps a season to avoid extra payouts to actors and crew

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  • [–] 5 points 1 day ago

    even mid-tier stuff like marvel's x-men and spider-man shows are pretty good and those have long seasons. Family Ties has a couple good seasons and then it falls off a cliff but that's not because of the season length the show just gets bad.

    i can't think of any shows where like 1/4 of the episodes are good and the rest are bad, those just get written off as bad shows overall and not making half the episodes wouldn't have saved them. maybe dragonball Z.

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  • [–] 6 points 1 day ago

    I disagree, though I see where you're coming from. My humble take on those days is that there simply was more to each show, so while it was harder to maintain high quality over many episodes, I feel that that simply means you had a higher chance of watching something good with there being so much out there.

    Take Cowboy Bebop, it's 26 episodes of just some of the best television out there. Not just best anime, no, best television ever made, and there might be one filler episode in the whole thing? A 26 episode season of anything just isn't a thing anymore, and imho having even shitty TV is better than none at all as it's art, and the amount of unique/novel/risktaking art being produced in a society is one of many barometers for that society's health.

    The risks just aren't being taken anymore, you only see "sure deals" now, and that leads to stagnation and eventually death of culture, and yeah, that is what's slowly happening. The media ecosystem is a reflection of the psyche of the the society that made said media, and right now that ecosystem is just a bunch of vultures feasting on the recently deceased bloated corpse of what remains.

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