▲ 107 ▼ Faced with a lawsuit, Sony lawyers argue "reasonable" PlayStation players are aware that they don't own the games they've paid for (www.eurogamer.net) submitted 13 hours ago by sanitation@lemmy.today to c/gaming@lemmy.world 20 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] ViatorOmnium@piefed.social 58 points 12 hours ago (2 children) Because "order" and "add to cart" are metaphors a reasonable person uses for licensing contracts? permalink fedilink source hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 3 points 10 hours ago (2 children) Not sure if Sony has updated their store pages, but this is at the bottom of every page. I'm going to assume you also need to confirm you've "read the terms and conditions" at checkout. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ViatorOmnium@piefed.social 11 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) At least in the European Union, the Unfair Contract Terms Directive and Digital Services Act put strict limitations in what the terms can do, especially if the contract cannot be negotiated individually. Even in the US laws regarding false advertisement might apply if most of the communication says one thing and the ToS no one reads say another. EDIT: and Chinese and Brazilian courts already gave indication that the terms are not fully enforceable there. permalink fedilink source parent [–] LouNeko@lemmy.world 5 points 10 hours ago I know it isn't the law but I feel like the burden of proof that somebody has actually read and understood the terms and conditions and was of sound mind when accepting it, should be on the company. Who knows, maybe I was just about to read the full thing and went to get myself a cup of coffee, while I was gone my cat stepped on the keyboard and pressed accept. And if the company can't prove beyond any reasonable doubt that I did in fact read, understood and accepted it, then the Terms and Conditions are effectively nulled. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ieGod@lemmy.zip -4 points 10 hours ago (2 children) I'll probably be jumped on for this but I think that's a fair presentation of the transaction. When you buy software on physical media in stores the mechanisms are identical to purchasing non-licensed items, yet you've never owned those either. They have always been licenses. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] DjangoFett@lemmy.zip 6 points 5 hours ago (1 child) Not true at all. I grew up in the age of dial up internet. When you bought software, you owned it. That media was yours to run on your hardware as you saw fit barring certain public/commercial uses, much like you're not allowed to buy a DVD to make copies and distribute it on your own. However, the expectation of exchanging money for ownership is about as old as money itself. If we were talking about, say, a blacksmith and their craft that you paid solid gold for, you would therefore be okay with the blacksmith showing up one day to reclaim their iron because you only purchased a license to his materials and not the ownership of the product? I don't see that being acceptable to you. What makes software different, especially when it doesn't require internet connectivity to actually function? I don't need connectivity to access locally stored media, and fuck Sony for reaching into anyone's account and deleting access to something they bought, full stop. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 1 point 3 hours ago This is on the first page of the manual for Blizzard's 1994 video game "Warcraft: Orcs & Humans" Does this sound like you own the game? Games have always had licences, they're much more restrictive now, but they've always had licences. permalink fedilink source parent [–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 1 point 4 hours ago It's unfortunate that anything less than demanding CEOs be shot in the head gets downvoted, but that's just online discussion today. I don't like restrictive licences either. It's why I use Linux and not Windows. Thankfully, people have a choice in the software they use and the games they play. I'm just not going to buy from Sony again. Problem solved. Nobody is demanding Microsoft have a less restrictive licence for Windows. I don't understand why the games Microsoft publishes are treated differently than the rest of their software. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 3 points 10 hours ago (2 children) Not sure if Sony has updated their store pages, but this is at the bottom of every page. I'm going to assume you also need to confirm you've "read the terms and conditions" at checkout. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] ViatorOmnium@piefed.social 11 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) At least in the European Union, the Unfair Contract Terms Directive and Digital Services Act put strict limitations in what the terms can do, especially if the contract cannot be negotiated individually. Even in the US laws regarding false advertisement might apply if most of the communication says one thing and the ToS no one reads say another. EDIT: and Chinese and Brazilian courts already gave indication that the terms are not fully enforceable there. permalink fedilink source parent [–] LouNeko@lemmy.world 5 points 10 hours ago I know it isn't the law but I feel like the burden of proof that somebody has actually read and understood the terms and conditions and was of sound mind when accepting it, should be on the company. Who knows, maybe I was just about to read the full thing and went to get myself a cup of coffee, while I was gone my cat stepped on the keyboard and pressed accept. And if the company can't prove beyond any reasonable doubt that I did in fact read, understood and accepted it, then the Terms and Conditions are effectively nulled. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ViatorOmnium@piefed.social 11 points 10 hours ago* (last edited 7 hours ago) At least in the European Union, the Unfair Contract Terms Directive and Digital Services Act put strict limitations in what the terms can do, especially if the contract cannot be negotiated individually. Even in the US laws regarding false advertisement might apply if most of the communication says one thing and the ToS no one reads say another. EDIT: and Chinese and Brazilian courts already gave indication that the terms are not fully enforceable there. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] LouNeko@lemmy.world 5 points 10 hours ago I know it isn't the law but I feel like the burden of proof that somebody has actually read and understood the terms and conditions and was of sound mind when accepting it, should be on the company. Who knows, maybe I was just about to read the full thing and went to get myself a cup of coffee, while I was gone my cat stepped on the keyboard and pressed accept. And if the company can't prove beyond any reasonable doubt that I did in fact read, understood and accepted it, then the Terms and Conditions are effectively nulled. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ieGod@lemmy.zip -4 points 10 hours ago (2 children) I'll probably be jumped on for this but I think that's a fair presentation of the transaction. When you buy software on physical media in stores the mechanisms are identical to purchasing non-licensed items, yet you've never owned those either. They have always been licenses. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] DjangoFett@lemmy.zip 6 points 5 hours ago (1 child) Not true at all. I grew up in the age of dial up internet. When you bought software, you owned it. That media was yours to run on your hardware as you saw fit barring certain public/commercial uses, much like you're not allowed to buy a DVD to make copies and distribute it on your own. However, the expectation of exchanging money for ownership is about as old as money itself. If we were talking about, say, a blacksmith and their craft that you paid solid gold for, you would therefore be okay with the blacksmith showing up one day to reclaim their iron because you only purchased a license to his materials and not the ownership of the product? I don't see that being acceptable to you. What makes software different, especially when it doesn't require internet connectivity to actually function? I don't need connectivity to access locally stored media, and fuck Sony for reaching into anyone's account and deleting access to something they bought, full stop. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 1 point 3 hours ago This is on the first page of the manual for Blizzard's 1994 video game "Warcraft: Orcs & Humans" Does this sound like you own the game? Games have always had licences, they're much more restrictive now, but they've always had licences. permalink fedilink source parent [–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 1 point 4 hours ago It's unfortunate that anything less than demanding CEOs be shot in the head gets downvoted, but that's just online discussion today. I don't like restrictive licences either. It's why I use Linux and not Windows. Thankfully, people have a choice in the software they use and the games they play. I'm just not going to buy from Sony again. Problem solved. Nobody is demanding Microsoft have a less restrictive licence for Windows. I don't understand why the games Microsoft publishes are treated differently than the rest of their software. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] DjangoFett@lemmy.zip 6 points 5 hours ago (1 child) Not true at all. I grew up in the age of dial up internet. When you bought software, you owned it. That media was yours to run on your hardware as you saw fit barring certain public/commercial uses, much like you're not allowed to buy a DVD to make copies and distribute it on your own. However, the expectation of exchanging money for ownership is about as old as money itself. If we were talking about, say, a blacksmith and their craft that you paid solid gold for, you would therefore be okay with the blacksmith showing up one day to reclaim their iron because you only purchased a license to his materials and not the ownership of the product? I don't see that being acceptable to you. What makes software different, especially when it doesn't require internet connectivity to actually function? I don't need connectivity to access locally stored media, and fuck Sony for reaching into anyone's account and deleting access to something they bought, full stop. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 1 point 3 hours ago This is on the first page of the manual for Blizzard's 1994 video game "Warcraft: Orcs & Humans" Does this sound like you own the game? Games have always had licences, they're much more restrictive now, but they've always had licences. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 1 point 3 hours ago This is on the first page of the manual for Blizzard's 1994 video game "Warcraft: Orcs & Humans" Does this sound like you own the game? Games have always had licences, they're much more restrictive now, but they've always had licences. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] threeonefour@piefed.ca 1 point 4 hours ago It's unfortunate that anything less than demanding CEOs be shot in the head gets downvoted, but that's just online discussion today. I don't like restrictive licences either. It's why I use Linux and not Windows. Thankfully, people have a choice in the software they use and the games they play. I'm just not going to buy from Sony again. Problem solved. Nobody is demanding Microsoft have a less restrictive licence for Windows. I don't understand why the games Microsoft publishes are treated differently than the rest of their software. permalink fedilink source parent