TheRealKuni comments on She's beyond saving

[–] TheRealKuni@piefed.social 4 points 2 months ago (5 children)

Have you read any Brandon Sanderson other than the last three WoT books? He’s a pretty amazing worldbuilder. And his hard magic systems are phenomenal. He’s also a master of story structure. The only area he lacks is prose, but he’s been improving on that over time.

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[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (4 children)

No, those were the first ones I've read by him and I just finished them. I can see how finishing someone else's series wouldn't allow his strengths in worldbuilding and story structure to shine.

The prose was one of the issues I had. How are his characters and dialogue in his own series? I can see it going either way, where his worldbuilding and narrative arc could create strong characters, or his weakness in prose could create weak dialogue. But characters and dialogue are so inherently intertwined that I'm not sure how well one could be done without the other.

If everything else is good and just the dialogue is lacking though, I could probably suspend judgement enough to enjoy the story and the world it takes place in (including its magic system).

Robert Jordan I didn't find particularly prosaic, but his characters were so well-done that I didn't mind as much once I decided to look past it. His plotline and worldbuilding were okay, although some aspects of both were really well-done, and the different civilizations and their histories/cultures, the underlying political currents among the nations and different factions were interesting enough to redeem the shortcomings. My point is that the characters are really where his work shines in my opinion.

If Sanderson does worldbuilding and story arcs really well, then those could be the things that shine for me and if so, I can look past a few weak areas as long as they're not too painfully bad.

I don't expect every series to have the same strengths. For instance no one could match Tolkien for prose, but politically his world only goes surface-deep. There's good guys and bad guys, and while there is some treachery and nuance, for the most part everyone is on one side or the other. Still a masterpiece though.

I'm finding it hard to walk away from the WoT though, partly because it's the most recent one I finished, but also particularly because the characters being the strong-point, I felt deep personal connections to some of them and was invested in their development, only for the story to end abruptly with no way to read further. It was like losing several friends at once. I experienced feelings similar to grief afterwards (and it wasn't just because some of my favorite characters died).

So it might take a gear-shift, and maybe a period of mourning, but if Sanderson has the strengths you describe then I could probably still get into it...

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[–] TheRealKuni@piefed.social 3 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Wheel of Time was my favorite series, until Stormlight Archive.

He does characters quite well. The dialogue isn’t always there, especially if the character is supposed to have a clever wit like Mat, but he’s getting better at that, too, with practice. But in terms of depth of character and setting he’s pretty fantastic. His characters are flawed and relatable and feel real, wound very well into his mastery of story structure. In Wheel of Time Androl is an excellent example, as that character was almost entirely Sanderson’s.

I recommend starting with either The Final Empire (first book in the Mistborn series) or The Way of Kings (first in the Stormlight series). The series eventually begin to intertwine and crossover to one another in a really brilliant way.

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[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 points 2 months ago (2 children)

It's funny that you mention Mat, because his character as well as Nynaeve's I felt suffered the most in the last three books. They both have such complex characters, though deceivingly simple on the surface. It seemed like Sanderson picked up on their surface simplicity without reproducing the underlying depth.

And yeah, I really liked Androl but he felt different in a way I couldn't put my finger on. So it makes sense now that you say he's mostly Sanderson's work. I can see that, how a newly introduced character gave Sanderson the creative liberty to write him in his own way. The result was a character that didn't quite seem to fit inside the world, yet was still a good character in his own right.

Not sure if I'm explaining that well. I liked him, but maybe something in the way that so much depth and backstory was packed into the last three books felt a bit unnatural, when all the other characters took so much time to develop in their complexity. Not in a bad way, just different.

But if he's an indicator of Sanderson's characters in his own series, then I think I could get into it.

His characters are flawed and relatable and feel real

That sounds promising. The characters' flaws in WoT is what makes them so interesting to me. Mat would have been bland if he wasn't a scoundrel, and Nynaeve would have been bland if she wasn't a bossy-pants. But when the two interact, their flaws create such an interesting dynamic. And the way it slowly develops from a mutual antagonism into deeply appreciating and caring about each other in a really wholesome way was one of the highlights of the series for me.

It's funny though, because now that I say that I realize I can't think of a flaw for either Moiraine or Egwene, and those were my two favorite characters. My third favorite was probably Birgitte, but of course she has a reason for being flawless. Eh, love is blind though, maybe they have flaws and I missed it. Oh and Bela. Bela was flawless.

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[–] TheRealKuni@piefed.social 2 points 2 months ago (1 child)

Bela was absolutely flawless.

I think Sanderson would be the first person to admit he didn’t do Mat justice. He’s spoken before about how difficult it was to write Mat.

Definitely give him a shot as an author. I think he’s brilliant, and he has SO. MANY. BOOKS. 😁

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[–] wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 1 point 2 months ago

Ah, now this is going to need a spoiler tag but I can't not say it.

Actual spoilers

I was SO UPSET when Bela died. It completely blindsided me. Like yeah, I knew she was in a dangerous situation, but she'd been in pickles before and got out unscathed. I had just finished telling myself that if anyone has plot armor, it's okay if Bela does. That I wouldn't be upset if she defies all likelihood and saves the day. Because she's Bela. Ole, reliable Bela. Always there when she's needed, always pulls through in a pinch. AND THAT'S OKAY.

But no. They had to go and do that. I don't know if that was Sanderson's decision or if Jordan left it in his notes, but all I know is that I hate it. I almost stopped reading, I was just so mad.

I wasn't so upset when Egwene sacrificed herself to save the pattern, because it made sense. She's selfless. She's a hero. She made her decision and she had no regrets about it. That's who she is, and it made sense in terms of the plot. I was sad, I mourned for her, but I understood.

But Bela dying was just senseless. Terrible creative decision on the author's part, and on the editor's as well. Anyone who would complain about a horse having plot armor is a psychopath and doesn't need to be catered to. This isn't fuckin ole yeller or where the red fern grows. God dammit.

I thought the only way to redeem that would be if Egwene came back with the heros of the horn, riding Bela. Or if someone visited her in tel'aran'rhiod and Bela was there. Or anything of the sort. But it didn't happen.

There was a hint that Egwene was tied to the Pattern. A small hint when her voice speaks to Rand outside the pattern. That's when the grief about her death really hit me for the first time. I guess I had still been in shock about losing Bela when she first died, so I was kinda numb.

Siuan deserved a better death than she got. I liked her and didn't want her to die, but her death was so nonchalant that it just felt so unfair. Like holy shit.

And then Lan got the death he always wanted, so bringing him back after that suddenly just felt so cheap. Like, if any of the main characters shouldn't have had plot armor, it was him. How was he one of the few to survive the last battle, when it had been foreshadowed since at least the second book that he would give his life in his war against the Shadow?

I mean I know people had to die. It was Tarmon Gai'don. If they got through it without losing any named characters, that would have been a creative mistake. But they didn't have to lose Bela! Come on...

Okay, soapbox over.

It's interesting that Sanderson was aware he didn't do Mat justice. The self-awareness is to his credit as an author, in my view.

I'll definitely give him a chance. I'm willing to acknowledge he may have simply been out of his element finishing the story in Jordan's world, and that his work in his own worlds could be better.

I need to wind down for a bit after finishing WoT though. I'm not ready to start another series that will take me a year+ to get through. It would feel like remarrying too soon after a divorce, if that makes sense. I need time to grieve before I move on.

I'll probably read Earthsea next since it's shorter and definitely within my comfort zone since I read some a few years ago and I liked it. I've been meaning to finish it ever since. Then maybe Ring World because it's lighthearted fun and I don't need to commit to reading the whole series in one go. After that I'll likely decide between Farseer or Mistborn

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