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Ciao (thelemmy.club)
submitted 1 month ago by to c/lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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[–] -1 points 4 weeks ago (2 children)

I used to entirely disagree with that sentiment, but was seeing a person a couple years ago and we got into a big argument over a local who would regularly walk the neighborhood (extremely liberal area) completely nude. I was all for it, but that partner at the time, wasn't.

They made the argument that while freedom for everybody is nice and good and important and stuff, it is affecting other people because they're attracted to it and it's uncomfortable to just have to deal with horniness in public.

I sympathize with the notion, but am now undecided/conflicted. There's a LOT of consideration over normativity and fundamental morality structures in this subject that I think most people cannot or just don't want to entertain as a subject of discussion. Personally, I'm a bit too ADHD to stay on the subject without a rational opposer who would also be dedicated to finding the basis for a conclusion, rather than placing emotional duress in front of everything like most people do.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    In this case I would argue that on the web you're unnaturally often confronted with sexual content, much more than you would be in reality.

    However I agree with you, this is kind of a delicate topic. The passive "I want to avoid" can easily be turned into an active "woman should not be allowed to wear short skirts because that is sexually attractive to me" and this is very dangerous thinking. It is diametrical to my own beliefs as I think nobody is allowed to tell anybody else how to dress in public. Your nudity example is of cause pretty extreme.

    I am a feminist and an ally, but I am also a man and I struggle with the topic in general. I am easily aroused from visual stimuli, it's nothing I can prevent. For sure I keep this in my head and I would never stare, catcall or whatever but I sometimes which I wouldn't be confronted with these stimuli in the outside world, it is distracting.

    I haven't thought this through completely and I find it a very difficult topic to talk about. There are two sides fighting - my liberal world view and my desire to normalize nudity versus a hypersexualized web and pop culture; and I feel avoiding this stuff and blocking NSFW helps me to desensitize, if that makes sense to you.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    Wouldn't blocking anything deemed risque or deviant more sensitize you than DEsensitize you? Or are you implying like a pornography addiction or something?

    Either way, I think this subject is VERY much in play in the current culture war we're in. The normalization of mainstream language now using shame, guilt, "on GOD", and other European Christianity masculine values like "brother" this and "bro" and "cringe" and stuff. So much of this newfound self help and what should be behavior never really gets looked at deeply, and so much of it is extremely problematic with racist, sexist, and homophobic foundational logic. So when people adapt it, like you say, it becomes a pretty slippery slope to controlling behavior that if you came out and just wanted people to stop, there would be an uprising. But because of these more insidious jumps in logic that people just assume ("naked person in public does affect me"), it becomes this slow decay that eats away at rights.

    Basically, I'm saying that we just have to ACTUALLY talk about, as hard as it may be, and we must talk about it HONESTLY and OPENLY. Maybe learning how to discuss topics like these needs to be what education reform focuses more on, so that, you and I are just screwed, but maybe the next generations can be better off, aware of, and protected against giant leaps in worldview logic, and how to address them justly.

    Like, I'm pan af and very sex positive, but also think safety and long term happiness for everybody should be the end goal. Let people be people, making drugs or speech illegal doesn't fix anything, "race" is not a synonym for species or national heritage, attractive or not naked people on the street aren't hurting anybody, the sexualization of everything actually fixes a lot of problems, and we must keep in mind that morality doesn't exist in nature and is solely defined by humanity and is basically infinitely fluctuating and differently simultaneously across different people across time and in different places.

    But, there has to be an answer to naked-person-having-a-walk-in-public.

    I'll start, with this question:

    Does the context in which the decision to do that matter? Does it matter if it was a PROTEST, or, say, a FETISH exhibitionist walk?

    Because, if it's a fetish walk, a lot of people will cry out the "no consent!" thing. But then you have to ask follow up questions about what is sexual, what is public, does it affect you, what does it mean to affect somebody, what the limits of affecting others are, what about acts of violence, how social contracts are implied, who follows, how they're changed, etc

    And if it's a protest, you basically have to answer the same questions, but just from a second perspective. And I'm sure there's more I'm not thinking of.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago

    Wouldn't blocking anything deemed risque or deviant more sensitize you than DEsensitize you? Or are you implying like a pornography addiction or something?

    That's probably a language barrier thing, what I am trying to say is that if I don't fill up my horny level throughout the day with horny posts, it is easier for me in everyday life to not get distracted from stimuli. Because you more you deal with a topic, the more you will think about it. I am luckily far away from a pornography addiction.

    You make valid points, of course this is part of the culture war. And as I as a politically left person am confused about the topic, the right has a huge potential to exploit this confusion. I am old and stable enough to not fall for this, I am open for discussing this instead. But this is not true especially for a lot of young cis men who are deeply insecure while growing up and I am very concerned about not having an answer for these young men.

    the sexualization of everything actually fixes a lot of problems

    I am not sure about this. I think the most important thing is to normalize nudity, which is a cultural thing. Many European countries, for example Finland with their sauna culture or Germany with its FKK culture are way better with then for example the US, where nipples are a symbol of the devil and where it is weird if small children run around naked.
    Sexualization of everything - I don't know, can you elaborate on what you mean?

    Does the context in which the decision to do that matter? Does it matter if it was a PROTEST, or, say, a FETISH exhibitionist walk?

    I think it does, FKK culture is a good example. In Germany there are explicit areas where nudity is possible and often you also need to be nude to enter these places (especially to protect against creeps).

    I am not a friend of nudity in public uncontrolled rooms because some people are even sex-negative. If you have had bad experiences for example of sexual assault, it's something that can trigger you. And this affects a large group in society. A protest is more a closed room, people can decide to participate or not. The CSD is a good example.

    For me personally, sex is a very private thing I only share with the people that are very close to me, and I think that's okay. On the other hand I am absolutely fine with people being sex-positive. As a society we somehow have to find a common ground and that's not always easy. In the end I think what we really need to be open about is as you already said, talking about it. Talking about sexuality, sexualization, nudity etc. Communication is key.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    If you're horny and turned on by someone just walking around naked, that's a you problem, not a them problem. Nudity isn't inherently sexual. If anyone thinks it is, I recommend you seek help.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    I think that's over simplifying it pretty significantly

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  • [–] 0 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    Oversimplifying what, exactly? That naked humans are not inherently sexual?

    Do you look at a dog and think "they're naked, I'd totally fuck that"?

    I'm pansexual. I'm attracted to all genders. Even my partner walks around naked in our house and my brain doesn't immediately go to "I'd fuck you right now".

    Nudity and personally induced intent to attract sexual intention are two VERY different things. And if that is confusing to you, you need help.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    Look, I'm trying to advocate for an opposing viewpoint, I'm not your enemy here. And even if I were, saying shit like "you need help" hardly paints a picture of open-minded rationality worthy of a good faith conversation.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 weeks ago (1 child)

    Not YOU as in you as an individual. I'm saying that if anyone that views another human naked in a non sexual environment gets turned on and is immediately sexuality that person, that they need to seek help. Because it is not normal for well adjusted humans to view a naked body in a non-sexual environment and view that person sexually.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 weeks ago

    Yeah I know not ME, me. It's still dismissive.

    On your point, though, I actually think that's perfectly fine. I don't think that's weird at all. And if not, that's also perfectly fine. The issue is the behavior that comes from that. Shitty behavior is just shitty behavior.

    I see that stuff all the time. There was a Renaissance Fair I went to recently, and there was this SUPER attractive guy with super nice legs and abs totally just out.

    Anyway, for ME, am I gonna get mad or whatever from that? No. But I can see where people that do might take issue. It may be annoying, jealousy, pain, or whatever. But it may also be an unwelcome distraction from what would otherwise be a calm, cool, collected and important focus..

    Now, I'm not saying the naked person should have to stop because the uncomfortable onlooker is disrupted, but I also don't think the solution is to just dismiss them as being wrong for having an unwanted reaction. Like, you can't just say "get good", that seems shitty.

    Which is how I arrive at my need to discuss the philosophy of what public is, what should happen with colliding perfectly acceptable, non-harm autonomies collide.

    The correct solution can't be to tell the nude person to conform. That's overwhelmingly based on really dangerous principles. But so is telling the onlooker to basically get over it, as that's basically the same premise of doing what OTHER people want your behavior to be in public and being like "have some self control".

    For now, however, I propose and think it is the correct course of action to allow the nude person and push for the real discussion that needs to be had, that I proposed initially, which is to examine autonomy and what it means to affect others, at all.

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