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What men want (thelemmy.club)
submitted 4 months ago by to c/whitepeopletwitter@sh.itjust.works
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[+] -10 points 4 months ago (31 children)

Oh, because consent is about mind-reading?

What she wears doesn't imply consent, except for when she wants it to (without communicating that), and then it's her boyfriend's failure as a man for not magically picking up on that?

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  • [–] 17 points 4 months ago (26 children)

    It never implies consent, and she hasn't said it does, and hasn't implied it does. Responding to an (apparent) attempt at seduction, which is what she actually wants, does not require one to do anything that requires consent. What do you think it involves? You think she wants him to climb aboard and start thrusting with no preamble? Can you imagine anything short of that that might make her happy?

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  • [–] -3 points 4 months ago (25 children)

    Responding to an (apparent) attempt at seduction, which is what she actually wants, does not require one to do anything that requires consent.

    What exactly do you think seduction is?

    I was under the impression that consent is required for pretty much everything. So what exactly do you expect him to do?

    "Hey, I noticed you're in your underwear. Does this mean you're propositioning me?"

    You can obfuscate all you want by code switching whenever it's convenient for you. "I'm horny, so nothing that I want right now requires consent" versus "I'm not in the mood right now, so if you even look at me without my consent I will hold a grudge against you for the rest of my life."

    Just don't be surprised when people stop putting up with your bullshit. The dude is probably focusing on his game because he doesn't feel like being teased, toyed with, and accused of heinous shit.

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  • [–] 11 points 4 months ago (24 children)

    "Hey, I noticed you're in your underwear. Does this mean you're propositioning me?"

    Rewrite this so it doesn't sound like it was written by chatgpt and you'd have an appropriate response, for example.

    Or he could put an arm around her, or lean in for a kiss, or whatever. The rest of your comment smells off. Stick to what's in the original if we're still talking about that, or else justify why what you're saying is realistic.

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  • [+] -7 points 4 months ago (23 children)

    Or he could put an arm around her, or lean in for a kiss, or whatever.

    Are you saying those things don't require consent? Because I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people out there who would roast your ass on a spit for trying that without asking for permission first.

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  • [–] 8 points 4 months ago (17 children)

    Are these people in the room with us now?

    Seriously, I don't think those people actually exist. And if they do, I'm going to continue to ignore them and not ask permission every time I kiss or touch my partner, who will continue to do likewise to me.

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  • [–] -5 points 4 months ago* (15 children)

    Great, so after being gaslighted by society for years that all the ordinary social conventions I internalized earlier in life were actually some of the most heinous crimes imaginable, now I'm being gaslit that the people who were originally gaslighting me don't exist?

    Have I been MKUltra-ed?

    Are these people in the room with us now?

    No, they're all on r/feminism...

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago* (3 children)

    Great, so after being gaslighted by society for years that all the ordinary social conventions I internalized earlier in life were actually some of the most heinous crimes imaginable

    What fucking reality do you live in?

    There is something so weird and off-putting when guys say shit like this.

    You make us all look bad.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Apparently a reality where literally everyone will insist on one thing to tell me I'm wrong, until I switch my position to be what all those people are telling me is correct, only for everyone to then continue to insist that I'm wrong and that the correct thing is exactly what I was saying originally.

    If that's not gaslighting, then I don't know what is. And don't tell me it's not really happening because it's happening right fucking now.

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    And don't tell me it's not really happening

    Then I suppose this is the end of the discussion.

    I guess good luck not accidentally being a rapist? Or whatever?

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago

    See, there you go implying that I would blatantly and severely violate someone's consent. That's the same hyperbolic strawman that everyone else seems to use whenever I point out the issue with inconsistent messaging and mixed signals.

    I didn't say "forcing yourself on someone who's telling you no doesn't violate consent." I said "if you expect someone to magically know when you're consenting without actually telling them, then you want them to be a mindreader; especially if you also insist that consent needs to be explicitly stated every time."

    Those seem like mutually exclusive expectations, so why am I being gaslit that both are valid and that I'm the problem for not intuiting a way past the fundamental inconsistency?

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago* (2 children)

    I believe what is being missed here in there are implied rules and agreements already in place in healthy relationships.

    For newer couples or people that are not yet a couple, having these conversations around consent is vital for building trust, intimacy, and respecting boundaries.

    For established couples, some things can be an entire conversation without an actual word being said, specifically because they’ve put in the time and work to lay those roads of understanding and listening. For instance, maybe your SO has a different wardrobe for intimate occasions as opposed to their regular cozy sleepwear. If they are wearing regular cozy sleepwear the implication would be that there is not an inherent green light on more intimacy in that moment.

    Also, on a side note consent can be still be something flirty/sexy but how it’s done matters too. I feel many people who have had their boundaries trampled or ignored are going to need more active reassurance and checking-in.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    Then how come when I tried to explain that to people years ago everybody reacted as if I was trying to say it's okay to sexually assault your wife?

    And no matter how firmly I insisted that it's not the same thing, everyone simply told me that I'm the one who's wrong and need to accept that?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago*

    Probably because you were speaking to a different audience years ago than the audience here. Alternatively, the way it was phrased could have been a bit different and was interpreted differently.

    If you’re in an audience of people that had previous bad experiences with consent being walked over, then many of those people are going to have their guards up to not get hurt again. I’m sure some people do want to be asked before any kiss or touch, even from a partner.

    Body language can tell quite a bit about what people are comfortable with as well, at least for people you’ve been in a relationship with for a good period already. There are times I can visibly tell my SO is irritated by something and I know, from past experience, that any sort of physical contact would be unwelcome in the moment.

    For some people and some relationships, consent for most things, in a relationship, is given implied consent unless said otherwise. For other people, it’s never implied unless explicitly stated. I believe many people in the later group have been hurt before and have walls up for a good reason. If you’re ever wondering where another person stands on this, it’s okay to ask the other person about their personal views.

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  • [–] 3 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    No, they're all on r/feminism...

    Ah shit I was wrong. Shoulda known it was incel all along.

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  • [–] -1 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    I'm an incel because people on r/feminism told me something that almost everyone here is now saying was wrong, and tore me a new asshole for insisting on precisely what everyone's else here is now saying is correct?

    Strange norms these days, it's a good thing I don't give a shit. I learned to get over petty insults when I was still in middle school...

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    people on r/feminism told me something that almost everyone here is now saying was wrong

    Smart money says you are incorrectly applying what they said to a totally different situation.

    Care to link to what you’re referring to?

    You seem like an incel because you can’t seem to understand that a relationship has different rules than when you’re getting to know someone.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago

    I don't bookmark every thread that pisses me off for future reference, and if you expected otherwise then that's just silly.

    Maybe it was r/askfeminists where someone had posted asking about relationship advice and I got skewered for saying something to the effect of people in relationships don't need to verbalize consent every time if they're on the same page. Which is exactly what people are now saying here.

    If you don't believe people on the feminist subreddits are like that, go over there and try having a reasonable discussion. I double-dog dare you.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (3 children)

    Well, have you ever encountered one in real life? If not, best not to worry.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Yes. Literally when I was in college. I even asked for consent super awkwardly, because that's what everyone said you're supposed to do. and even when someone said yes I still had to deal with accusations from her friends later because they decided after the fact that she didn't really mean yes and that I was supposed to somehow read her mind.

    How many times do I need to ask "Are you sure?" Before a yes counts as consent?

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Leaning in for a kiss is not the same as kissing. It's really not difficult at all to be able to tell if she wants to reciprocate or not.

    Like goddamn, some people here really need to get laid.

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  • [–] 1 point 4 months ago (2 children)

    Err, you would get labeled a major creep if you try that with the wrong person. A majorngble that is

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  • [–] 4 points 4 months ago* (1 child)

    With the wrong person? Are we not talking about a person you're dating that is in bed with you, in underwear?

    Guys, if you're seeing someone and you're sharing a bed, and she's in her underwear, there is a pretty good chance that she would be ok with you kissing her. If she's not, it would be clear like the second you make the decision to try, and then you stop.

    And ask her why the fuck she's almost naked in your bed.

    I mean for fuck sake guys.

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  • [–] 5 points 4 months ago (3 children)

    Welcome to another classic episode of “Troll or incel!”

    I’m going with troll for this one.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (2 children)

    Welcome to another episode of "Not taking men's concerns seriously even when they're legitimately confused by all the mixed messages, double standards, and shifting expectations that are impossible to guess at any given moment!"

    I'm going to go with maybe I've been gaslit for years, and I bet people still won't treat that as valid.

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  • [–] 0 points 4 months ago (1 child)

    So to be clear, you are confused about.. what exactly?

    In what possible way would “mind reading” even be relevant to this discussion?

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  • [–] 2 points 4 months ago

    Someone said the woman in the post is expecting advances from her boyfriend, but how is he supposed to know that? Everything I've heard for at least the past six years has been about how we're never supposed to assume advances would be welcome. So the mind-reading is required because the guy is expected to just know that she wants that, without her ever telling him so.

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