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For people who, like me, believe in Determinism(the Believe that is no True Free will), how do you draw the line for free will. (programming.dev)
submitted 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) by to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world
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So I dont believe in free will ,through a combination of experience and events in my life(most to do with leaving religion) however like most, I recognise the need for the concept of free will, as artificial as it may be

But where to draw the line. Obviously, even for people that believe in free will, where they draw there line is different among each other e.g across cultures, generation and among individual, but what do you do when you know that line is just artificial.

For example, alots people say that trauma doesn't excuses abuse, only contextualise, it but if you have statical evidence that a large or even most of abusers have been abused/been through a traumatic event that is by defined an excuse.

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[–] 8 points 5 months ago (2 children)

So I dont believe in free will ,through a combination of experience and events in my life(most to do with leaving religion) however like most, I recognise the need for the concept of free will, as artificial as it may be

People who say this are more or less always confusing two different definitions.

Libertarian free will, being the ability to make a choice without context is obviously impossible.

What most people think of as free will "the ability to make a choice" is very obviously real.

I can chose to raise my hand, I can chose to lower it.

For example, alots people say that trauma doesn’t excuses abuse, only contextualise, it but if you have statical evidence that a large or even most of abusers have been abused/been through a traumatic event that is by defined an excuse.

People misuse the word "excuse" a lot. Like a huge amount.

People say "that is not an excuse" when what they mean is "that doesn't make it ok." or they say "I dont want excuses" when what they mean is "I am going to be mad no matter reasonable your actions are"

Yes, abusing somebody because you are abused is an excuse (in that it explains why), its also not an excuse (in that it doesnt make it ok).

You need to be more specific in what "excuse" means.

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  • [–] [S] 0 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 child)

    What most people think of as free will "the ability to make a choice" is very obviously real.

    I dont think so, everything I have or will ever do is something that has been set in motion long before I was ever born. Most people understand this on the macro level, where you were born, where you go to school/life, your nationality and even stuff like what you choose to do for living.

    What I am arguing that it's all predetermined, that yes which hand you choose to raise is not a choice your making but the dominio effect of the entire universe, that you choosing to use your hand as example is not a choose, that your believe in free will is not a choose as much as my lack of believe in it isn't my choice. How you worded that, the language you used, you seeing and reply to this post, the platform your on etc etc.....

    I am not saying this is good or even realistic believe just the one that makes the most sense, at least to me.

    I suppose it's not that free will is not real but rather its a paradoxical concept. Free will means the ability to make one's own choice but no choice really is your own because nothing exists in vacuum.

    You need to be more specific in what "excuse" means.

    Sorry, I worded that incorrectly. I guess what I am trying to say that someone who abuses another because of Schizophrenia isn't anymore to people than someone who doesn't have a mental illness and has still abused someone. In both cases we could do what we can to stop the abuse but doesn't mean we are assigning blame to anyone.

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  • [–] 1 point 5 months ago

    I dont think so, everything I have or will ever do is something that has been set in motion long before I was ever born.

    So if I tell you to raise your hand, you either chose to raise your hand, or chose not to.

    What I am arguing that it’s all predetermined, that yes which hand you choose to raise is not a choice your making but the dominio effect of the entire universe, that you choosing to use your hand as example is not a choose, that your believe in free will is not a choose as much as my lack of believe in it isn’t my choice. How you worded that, the language you used, you seeing and reply to this post, the platform your on etc etc…..

    This is an entirely meaningless argument. Its impossible for anybody to determine that I would chose to use my hand, or if I would chose to raise my hand.

    The distinction between if I think I chose to raise my hand vs if Its really pre-determined is meaningless, I still make that choice.

    Sorry, I worded that incorrectly. I guess what I am trying to say that someone who abuses another because of Schizophrenia isn’t anymore to people than someone who doesn’t have a mental illness and has still abused someone. In both cases we could do what we can to stop the abuse but doesn’t mean we are assigning blame to anyone.

    In both cases we blame the person who made the choice to abuse somebody else

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