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PS Plus price hike: We'll all pay for a subscription-based future | Opinion (www.gamesindustry.biz)
submitted 3 years ago by [M] to c/gaming@beehaw.org
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[–] 60 points 3 years ago (61 children)

I still wonder why console players allowed their online services to require subscriptions in the first place.

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  • [–] 46 points 3 years ago (7 children)

    Because back in the days of original Xbox and 360, it was a better service than what you got for free elsewhere.

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  • [–] 36 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    That, and it was slightly more justifiable when these companies were first setting up and operating networks for the services and matchmaking. Economies of scale should have nullified that by now, though.

    The other big one I don't see people mentioning, but that I remember clearly, was that if you wanted to use Netflix on 360, you had to pay for Live. I think that, above anything else in my friend group, was the move that normalized paying for online services on a console.

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    i miss when you could watch netflix with your avatar and invite friends to watch with you. only got to do it one time ever

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    Idk about with your avatar, but I still have movie nights with friends that I stream things to over Discord and Emby (like plex)

    I literally just finished a "movie classic" night with a friend in New York where we watched ALIENS together and chatted about how awesome Sigourney Weaver's performance is. 👏 🍿

    It might be interesting to do it with little Wii characters, but we had fun regardless.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    yeah xbox used to have a feature where you watch netflix with a friend, and it even had theater seats and your avatar at the bottom of the screen and you could do emotes and stuff

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  • [–] 20 points 3 years ago (52 children)

    I don't think it was a choice. Xbox did it first and that's why I bought a ps3. Then sony introduced it. Then nintendo. It's still less expensive than a PC hobby. Consumers don't have much say in what these companies do or how they operate.

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  • [–] 25 points 3 years ago (36 children)

    It’s still less expensive than a PC hobby

    Only if you plan on either never paying for an online sub for the console or paying for an online sub for less than 5 years on the console, and also take into consideration that a PC can both game and be a computer you can use for other things.

    A gaming PC has a higher upfront cost, but it’s a better long-term value. Let’s say you buy a PS5 for $500, and then pay for 5 years of PS+ for the old price, $60. That’s $800 for a friggin console already, but let’s also consider that most people either have a laptop or a tablet for doing computer-related tasks. Reasonable people would pay probably somewhere in the $400-$600 range, but let’s give the console a chance and say we got a $400 laptop. That’s $1200 now.

    Using that $1200 as a budget, you can get a computer with a 4060ti, a 12th gen i5, a 1TB NVME SSD, and 16GB RAM for around $1100. Note that, say, 5 years down the line from buying this PC, you can just swap in and out parts as you want and be able to sell old parts for some money back, so staying up-to-date to play whatever current games can be cheaper too depending on the part prices.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Also anecdotally parts seem to be lasting much longer than they used to. Maybe I'm just playing fewer games, maybe I care about graphics less, or maybe there actually is a technical reason but in the early 00s when I first started building computers I was essentially forced to upgrade about every 2 or 3 years but now I'm still running on my 7 year old desktop with a 1070 -- I was going to upgrade the graphics card but the crypto mining boom priced me out and lo and behold I'm still able to play whatever I want with nary a difficulty. Even Baldur's Gate 3 runs just fine, with a little chugging.

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  • [–] 6 points 3 years ago

    The percentage of the industry that can afford to push modern graphics to their limit has only shrunk over time as the development time required to make games that taxing has increased. That's why most of what you play isn't particularly high-spec.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago (27 children)

    Need to add a good quality mouse and keyboard to your numbers at minimum. Consoles come with controllers.

    Should also add a $99 Windows license too.

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  • [–] 8 points 3 years ago* (13 children)

    Ok. Logitech G203 for $20 and a Redragon K552 for $45 - a tiny bit cheaper than a PS5 controller which retails at $70 before tax.

    Windows you can literally get for free from Microsoft directly. You’re basically paying a license to get rid of the “Activate Windows” bit and to be able to change wallpapers, but functionally you can play games and do computer things with an unactivated Windows license. You can also opt to play on Linux instead since Steam offers Proton with their Linux version, and you can also use WINE for games that won’t run on Proton. Linux is also free.

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (12 children)

    Those are not in the same quality tier at all, at least include a wireless rechargeable mouse.

    Consoles don’t have licensing issues with their OS. You can’t run every PC game issue free on steam OS or Linux.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    Now you’re just arguing in bad faith lol.

    If you want a mouse with a good sensor for competitive games and a linear switch mechanical keyboard with NKRO, those are generally the two best entry-level options. Rechargeable wireless mice can be a bit pricey, which is why I’m assuming you used a vague descriptor of “quality” and specifically mentioned it just for the sake of being arbitrarily on par with what a PS5 offers. But if you want a good budget option for a wireless gaming mouse, you can with a Logitch G305 for around $50.

    As for the OS stuff, that’s a good point, and it’s true - if you’re talking about 5 or so years ago. Once Steam said “hey, we’re integrating Proton into our Linux version of Steam”, it’s been leaps and bounds in improvements for Linux gaming. By the way, fun fact: the PS4 used FreeBSD for the system’s OS which is based off Unix - and surprise, Linux is also based off Unix. Wouldn’t be surprised if the PS5 OS is also based on FreeBSD.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    How is that a bad faith argument? The PS5 Controller is not entry level quality. It's not my problem equivalent PC peripherals are expensive. My Razer Viper Wireless cost $150 and the build quality is just slightly worse than a Dual Sense. It's built to be lighter weight so that's understandable. But it's twice the cost, and that doesn't include a keyboard. I tried the G305 and didn't care for the build quality personally. Equivalent wireless keyboards with the quality control of Sony are $80-$100 too. I'd probably cheap out on the keyboard before the mouse, but every keyboard I've used under $85 had Quality control issues from switches stop functioning to buggy software (Anne Pro II), and Wireless was terrible on all of them.

    I've heard issues dealing with multiplayer and anti-cheat as recently as this summer, so it's nice to see it's better, but until games are officially supported with no third party patches or workarounds, I don't count it.

    PS5 is FreeBSD based, so yes it's Unix-like. But that doesn't mean anything. MacOS is also Unix-Like and it's terrible for gaming. It all comes down to support. At the end of the day I don't want to have to deal with drivers, or configurations to play a game. I want to press a button, and start gaming. For me personally Consoles are going to win that war 95% of the time. But I'm dumb. I spent almost 3 times the cost of a PS5 on a Graphics card last year for some reason.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    Last time I’ll engage with you on this topic.

    The PS5 Controller is not entry level quality. It’s not my problem equivalent PC peripherals are expensive.

    You’re right - it’s the only entry in at that price point. If you just want a wireless PS5 controller, you either pay Sony $70… or you pay an approved 3rd-party retailer $150+ at minimum for a non-Sony controller. So it’s comes out the same as the Viper Wireless you mentioned.

    My Razer Viper Wireless cost $150 and the build quality is just slightly worse than a Dual Sense. It’s built to be lighter weight so that’s understandable. But it’s twice the cost, and that doesn’t include a keyboard. I tried the G305 and didn’t care for the build quality personally.

    How the fuck can you compare build qualities between a controller and a mouse?? Like, how do you actually do that? You’re comparing apples to oranges here at best, and at worst you’re doing a strawman argument by cherry-picking things that support your point. You also prove that enjoying build quality is subjective - I personally loved the G305 mouse and how it felt in my hand, and I have used stuff like the Viper Wireless and Glorious Model O. But you what the best mouse I have used to date is? The CoolerMaster MM720, which is a $30 wired mouse. The consumer have choices at different price points when it comes to gaming peripherals, and you are right that they can be crazy expensive at the top end - but don’t pretend $180 controllers don’t exist, either, and don’t try to conflate high-price point items as being good, because you can easily get a good quality mouse with bells and whistles in the $60-$80 space.

    Equivalent wireless keyboards with the quality control of Sony are $80-$100 too. I’d probably cheap out on the keyboard before the mouse, but every keyboard I’ve used under $85 had Quality control issues from switches stop functioning to buggy software (Anne Pro II), and Wireless was terrible on all of them.

    That I will give you, but you’re also deliberately shopping in the $40 range for stuff like the Anne Pro II Keyboard you mentioned. I can say every PS5 controller I used under $70 was awful, but that doesn’t mean much once I mention I was buying $20 controllers.

    I’ve heard issues dealing with multiplayer and anti-cheat as recently as this summer, so it’s nice to see it’s better, but until games are officially supported with no third party patches or workarounds, I don’t count it.

    Anti-cheat has also been on consoles for decades now - not as bad as PC to your point, but once again don’t act like consoles don’t experience the issue either, especially when stuff like Xim exists.

    PS5 is FreeBSD based, so yes it’s Unix-like. But that doesn’t mean anything. MacOS is also Unix-Like and it’s terrible for gaming. It all comes down to support.

    Good point, forgot Macs exist tbh lol. It is also only one OS that doesn’t have good gaming support, but honestly it’s a toss-up. Linux has gotten some really good support though.

    At the end of the day I don’t want to have to deal with drivers, or configurations to play a game. I want to press a button, and start gaming. For me personally Consoles are going to win that war 95% of the time.

    Which is a completely valid point - but that’s not the point you were making initially. Since you said right off that bat:

    Need to add a good quality mouse and keyboard to your numbers at minimum. Consoles come with controllers. Should also add a $99 Windows license too.

    You made it a point to talk about the price of the computer versus a console, not the ease of use of it.

    I spent almost 3 times the cost of a PS5 on a Graphics card last year for some reason.

    Because you deliberately chose to spend that much on a GPU that outperforms a PS5 in graphical power? I bought a $400 GPU that slightly beats the PS5 out a couple of years back, so that’s moot.

    How is that a bad faith argument?

    Because I’m dumb and I just learned what “bad faith” actually means lol. My apologies on that, it was the wrong usage - “cherry-picking” is literally the word I should have used.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago

    So it’s comes out the same as the Viper Wireless you mentioned.

    No, it comes with the console. So to be fair, just subtract $70 from the cost of the PS5 = $330 for the Digital Version

    How the fuck can you compare build qualities between a controller and a mouse

    Easy, the Plastic and Switches on the Razer feel cheaper / more brittle. There is more flex to it when squeezed. The charging dock connectors are less reliable. To be fair, the mouse did come with a dock with my model, I think it may be a bit cheaper without it.

    you can easily get a good quality mouse with bells and whistles in the $60-$80 space.

    You absolutely can, but you didn't include anything originally and that's why I made a point of bringing it up.

    you’re also deliberately shopping in the $40 range for stuff like the Anne Pro II Keyboard

    I paid $90 for in in late 2019. Assuming that's not a counterfeit listing (Official site lists it for $90 with $10 off but OOO). The macros and software customization is incredible... when it works. Bluetooth was worthless, I had repeated key presses from time to time, and the config kept getting erased randomly when I would unplug it.

    Anti-cheat has also been on consoles for decades now

    I meant anti-cheat preventing the game from working. I stopped playing competitive a long time ago.

    Linux has gotten some really good support though.

    Subjective I guess. ProtonDB still lists a lot of games with issues. Not a lot are natively supported by the devs.

    You made it a point to talk about the price of the computer versus a console, not the ease of use of it.

    Yea I did, and the Ease of use is tied to the cost through the Windows license or lack there of. In all of these comparisons the PC side neglects to include the cost of Keyboards, Mice, and Windows.

    Because you deliberately chose to spend that much on a GPU that outperforms a PS5 in graphical power? I bought a $400 GPU that slightly beats the PS5 out a couple of years back, so that’s moot.

    That's the entire cost of a PS5, and a few years back an equivalent SSD was $200.

    cherry picking

    That's basically my original point. You can't leave out a mouse and keyboard.

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago* (12 children)

    If love to know who these people are that pay for windows. I think 95 was the last time that I know of anyone doing it. Maybe XP.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (11 children)

    I can steal a PlayStation 5 too if theft is part of the discussion. Games too.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago*

    Considering piracy equivalent to hardware theft is just intellectually dishonest. In a lot of ways, but relevant to this discussion is that piracy is way less risky, so more people do it. If you try to steal a PS5 from a store I'd go as far to say you'd probably get caught and jailed. With piracy you almost definitely won't get caught.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    I think this debate can get lost in the numbers when it's more about the user. For some people that upfront cost is going to make sense, for others it won't. The math isn't the hard part. Specifically though, a PC hobby isn't exactly a cheap hobby.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago*

    Gaming in general isn't a cheap hobby. You can get a 320$ steam deck, dock it and plug it into an old monitor add a cheap KB and mouse and you are PC gaming. Or you can spend 3,200$ on a top of the line rig. Its whatever you want to make of it. I wouldnt say its more expensive than console gaming, but you can make it one and you will get a better experience for it. Either way personally I would consider PC the best option by a fairly large margin.

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  • [–] 13 points 3 years ago (12 children)

    It’s still less expensive than a PC hobby

    just with the sales and free online/cloudsaves PCs are cheaper in the long run

    And mods are an added value, we can even include fanmade patches that fix what developers don't into that added value

    Consumers don’t have much say in what these companies do or how they operate.

    Yes, they do. Microsoft tried to incorporate Xbox live onto PC and it was a failure because PC consumers didn't bought it

    The same goes with paid mods, Valve and Bethesda tried to make people buy mods and it was rejected by the consumer so the have to backtrack.

    Consumers have all the power in their wallet they decide what course the companies take. If a company does something that goes against your interests as consumer is as easy as stop giving them money, if you hurt them economically, they'll have to go back to the business model that gave them profits (this works only if the average consumer is intelligent enough to protect their own interest/rights)

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  • [–] 7 points 3 years ago (2 children)

    Used or loaned games (provided you have libraries offering them in your area) are still a huge benefit for (most, ie physical media "enabled") consoles.

    The subscription model is broken by default, regardless of Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo, and is only good and cheap until it isn't anymore.

    Agreed that consumers have a say, to some extent, however some are too far "into the ecosystem" to either care or be willing to boycott or make a change that would inconvenience them, so they'd rather give in.

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  • [–] 4 points 3 years ago* (last edited 3 years ago) (1 child)

    100% agree with that, but even then the sharing of physical media seems like it’s being slowly replaced with sharing digital libraries. PS4 allows a hokey way of sharing libraries between two people, and Steam does offer a similar janky way of sharing libraries between multiple people. With GOG, you should be able to download a standalone installer on a USB and then give that to a friend (which now I think about it, is the PC equivalent of lending your friend the disc lol).

    Wondering how long it will be until people go “remember when we used to share discs with each other?”

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  • [–] 1 point 3 years ago

    Oh absolutely, I know I'm already part of a minority when I favour physical over digital media.
    We're likely seeing the last (or, more realistically, second to last?) generation of consoles with physical media as an option and that's a bummer...
    GOG is great on the PC side of things, but as someone with a Steam Deck as their only PC, it isn't always the best option (some games have been giving me a headache or end up straight up not working - eg I've had to rebuy Gris because the GOG version would show a white screen with any version of Proton I tried, while the Steam version was perfectly fine).

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago (8 children)

    just with the sales and free online/cloudsaves PCs are cheaper in the long run

    This may be true, but then i think this is just annother example of how it is more expensive to be poor. Even if PCs are cheaper in the long run, it's hard to scrounge up the $1000+ upfront to buy a worthwhile PC if you're living paycheck-to-paycheck. Over 60% of Americans live paycheck-to-paycheck. If you are living that way, it's much easier to come up with the $300-500 for a console (in the US, that's an average tax refund amount), and then the $15 a month for gamepass/PS plus. And don't tell me you can buy a lowend PC for that price - any PC you buy for $500 is gonna play games worse than the comparable console.

    In cases where our only power is in our wallet, people with bigger wallets will be the only ones with actual power.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (7 children)

    I'd say it's more expensive to lack common sense

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (6 children)

    yes of course, we all know Best Buy accepts common sense as payment when you don't have enough money for that 4060 🙃

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago (5 children)

    No, if you are poor you learn to value every cent and not being wasteful, if you have common sense, of course

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  • [–] 5 points 3 years ago (4 children)

    It's not common sense, that's a common false judgement applied to people with less means - it's a value judgement and diminishes their struggle. This is a reminder to be nice on our instance.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago (3 children)

    I'm not rich, I know what I'm talking about. When I'm going to spend money I have to look the best way to spend it, which is the best "invest". Being wasteful is an luxury I personally can't afford.

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  • [–] 3 points 3 years ago* (2 children)

    Fantastic, I'm great you have that going for you. I'm letting you know that making value judgements on other poor people for being poor is not okay. Don't do that on Beehaw.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago* (1 child)

    making value judgements on other poor people for being poor is not okay

    luckyly for me, I'm not doing that

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago

    I told you that you need to change your behavior and all you've done is attempt to argue with me rather than understand why your behavior was not acceptable. You're getting a 7 day ban so you can have time to think this over.

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  • [–] 10 points 3 years ago (1 child)

    If you use your PC for anything other than gaming then it's not more expensive.

    Laptop + Console costs about the same as a Desktop PC. The MacBook + Console combo I see a lot is even more expensive than a PC.

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  • [–] 2 points 3 years ago

    I think you're vastly underestimating how cheap most computers are; consumer laptops are around $300-500 median, that's what most people use. And those laptops don't game. The enthusiast computer market, while larger than its ever been, is still a ridiculously small percentage of computers sold.

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