▲ 856 ▼ The RAM shortage is coming for everything you care about (www.theverge.com) submitted 6 months ago by return2ozma@lemmy.world to c/technology@lemmy.world 341 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[+] bonenode@piefed.social 327 points 6 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (11 children) [deleted] permalink fedilink source hideshow 22 child comments replies: [–] kingofras@lemmy.world 141 points 6 months ago (6 children) It’s called Imaginary Economics. It tends to happen right before a capitalist system fails. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] victorz@lemmy.world 73 points 6 months ago (18 children) It tends to happen right before a capitalist system fails. How often does this happen that we can claim this correlation? 🤔 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] Venator@lemmy.nz 34 points 6 months ago (2 children) About once every 350 years... With a sample size of 3... 😅 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] victorz@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago Better than no samples I guess! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (1 child) So you're saying which empires/systems exactly then? Spain perhaps? The Holy Roman empire? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Venator@lemmy.nz -2 points 6 months ago I was averaging roman, British and Mongolian empires, based on Google AI summary, so take that with a pinch of salt 😅 🧂 permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (17 replies) [–] blah3166@piefed.social 27 points 6 months ago Can I coin the term imagineomics? permalink fedilink source parent [–] boatswain@infosec.pub 13 points 6 months ago [citation needed] permalink fedilink source parent [–] 1984@lemmy.today 11 points 6 months ago When has this happened before? permalink fedilink source parent [–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago (2 children) I'm not holding my breath. We've been hearing about an AI crash practically since the hype train started. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago People can see the trends and see how it will probably break down in some way, the problem is that the market can stay irrational longer than we can stay solvent. It helps that these dipshits seem to have forgotten that money equals abstract resources and creating new resource issues that'll certainly put pressure on them in a more direct way either through legislation or via sabotage of required infrastructure. permalink fedilink source parent [–] daddycool@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago It's the biggest bubble seen to date. It has all the characteristics, and it will crash eventually. permalink fedilink source parent [–] BreakerSwitch@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago Is this a thing? Because what comes to mind for me is "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent," which just happens sometimes permalink fedilink source parent [–] Whostosay@sh.itjust.works 64 points 6 months ago The term was well established centuries ago. FRAUD permalink fedilink source parent [–] Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com 43 points 6 months ago (1 child) Yes there is: it's a Ponzi scheme (AI companies will fail when they get no new funds to pay off the stockholders) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jaybone@lemmy.zip 8 points 6 months ago (2 children) Are they paying off stockholders? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Rothe@piefed.social 8 points 6 months ago They are creating staggering shortsighted profits, so yes, they are doing that. And of course ignoring what a bubble does in the long run. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 6 months ago Those who bail out only. permalink fedilink source parent [–] dust_accelerator@discuss.tchncs.de 33 points 6 months ago I like electron finance Their exact location cannot be pinpointed; instead, they exist in a probability cloud where they are likely to be found at any given time. That's what this hype cycle is founded on. If I lend you $5, you have $5 you can lend further. Now, we each still have a right to $5, so we can lend that debt obligation again for $4.50. Now we have, somehow, a market value of $19. Until someone looks, then it's probably 0. permalink fedilink source parent [–] sefra1@lemmy.zip 24 points 6 months ago* Unfortunately there’s no good term for that, I guess. Market manipulation? permalink fedilink source parent [–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 22 points 6 months ago (1 child) It's a racket, plain and simple. There used to be laws against this sort if thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 16 points 6 months ago It's a racket, plain and simple. There used to be laws against this sort if thing. Keyword: used to I hope that it was worth it, and that America is great again. Let me just check some news articles... Oh my permalink fedilink source parent [–] gressen@lemmy.zip 20 points 6 months ago It is a shortage caused by artificial demand rise. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago A mismatch between supply and demand is called a shortage. The source is irrelevant. permalink fedilink source parent [–] anomnom@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago* Supply monopolization? Consumer fraud? Sherman Act cartel market manipulation. Section 1 of the Sherman Act prohibits price fixing and the operation of cartels, and prohibits other collusive practices that unreasonably restrain trade. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 6 months ago We have RAM supply shortage. Now better? god... permalink fedilink source parent [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 months ago (2 children) It’s shitty AI companies buying RAM It's greedy manufacturers selling it all to them in the first place and other market segments be damned. I'm no AI fan but the manufactures aren't angels either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] AA5B@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago The shovel makers and shovel sellers always get rich in a gold rush permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (1 child) If your boss offered you a raise for the same work, would you turn it down? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Not the same. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (1 child) The money is fixed. You getting a raise means the money has to come from somewhere- which means the boss taking a pay cut or the customers paying more. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Still not the same, i don't work for any of those manufacturers - and if i did i sure as hell wouldn't care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers. Won't someone please pity the CEOs... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago I'm referring to the relationship between someone offering you more money for the same work the difference of which gets passed on to consumers. A few consumers are going to a business and offering more money for the same work. The consumer is the business's boss just like your boss might offer you more money. You aren't going to turn down the raise because it will hurt other consumers just like the business isn't going to turn down the money even though it will cost other consumers more. and if i did i sure as hell wouldn’t care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers I brought that up because that wasn't going to happen. If you get a raise, your boss isn't going to take a paycut to make it happen. The raise comes from the consumers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] kingofras@lemmy.world 141 points 6 months ago (6 children) It’s called Imaginary Economics. It tends to happen right before a capitalist system fails. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] victorz@lemmy.world 73 points 6 months ago (18 children) It tends to happen right before a capitalist system fails. How often does this happen that we can claim this correlation? 🤔 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] Venator@lemmy.nz 34 points 6 months ago (2 children) About once every 350 years... With a sample size of 3... 😅 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] victorz@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago Better than no samples I guess! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (1 child) So you're saying which empires/systems exactly then? Spain perhaps? The Holy Roman empire? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Venator@lemmy.nz -2 points 6 months ago I was averaging roman, British and Mongolian empires, based on Google AI summary, so take that with a pinch of salt 😅 🧂 permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (17 replies) [–] blah3166@piefed.social 27 points 6 months ago Can I coin the term imagineomics? permalink fedilink source parent [–] boatswain@infosec.pub 13 points 6 months ago [citation needed] permalink fedilink source parent [–] 1984@lemmy.today 11 points 6 months ago When has this happened before? permalink fedilink source parent [–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago (2 children) I'm not holding my breath. We've been hearing about an AI crash practically since the hype train started. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago People can see the trends and see how it will probably break down in some way, the problem is that the market can stay irrational longer than we can stay solvent. It helps that these dipshits seem to have forgotten that money equals abstract resources and creating new resource issues that'll certainly put pressure on them in a more direct way either through legislation or via sabotage of required infrastructure. permalink fedilink source parent [–] daddycool@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago It's the biggest bubble seen to date. It has all the characteristics, and it will crash eventually. permalink fedilink source parent [–] BreakerSwitch@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago Is this a thing? Because what comes to mind for me is "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent," which just happens sometimes permalink fedilink source parent
[–] victorz@lemmy.world 73 points 6 months ago (18 children) It tends to happen right before a capitalist system fails. How often does this happen that we can claim this correlation? 🤔 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 19 child comments replies: [–] Venator@lemmy.nz 34 points 6 months ago (2 children) About once every 350 years... With a sample size of 3... 😅 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] victorz@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago Better than no samples I guess! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (1 child) So you're saying which empires/systems exactly then? Spain perhaps? The Holy Roman empire? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Venator@lemmy.nz -2 points 6 months ago I was averaging roman, British and Mongolian empires, based on Google AI summary, so take that with a pinch of salt 😅 🧂 permalink fedilink source parent load more comments (17 replies)
[–] Venator@lemmy.nz 34 points 6 months ago (2 children) About once every 350 years... With a sample size of 3... 😅 permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] victorz@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago Better than no samples I guess! permalink fedilink source parent [–] Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (1 child) So you're saying which empires/systems exactly then? Spain perhaps? The Holy Roman empire? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Venator@lemmy.nz -2 points 6 months ago I was averaging roman, British and Mongolian empires, based on Google AI summary, so take that with a pinch of salt 😅 🧂 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] victorz@lemmy.world 11 points 6 months ago Better than no samples I guess! permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Cocodapuf@lemmy.world 5 points 6 months ago (1 child) So you're saying which empires/systems exactly then? Spain perhaps? The Holy Roman empire? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Venator@lemmy.nz -2 points 6 months ago I was averaging roman, British and Mongolian empires, based on Google AI summary, so take that with a pinch of salt 😅 🧂 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Venator@lemmy.nz -2 points 6 months ago I was averaging roman, British and Mongolian empires, based on Google AI summary, so take that with a pinch of salt 😅 🧂 permalink fedilink source parent
[–] blah3166@piefed.social 27 points 6 months ago Can I coin the term imagineomics? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] 1984@lemmy.today 11 points 6 months ago When has this happened before? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 7 points 6 months ago (2 children) I'm not holding my breath. We've been hearing about an AI crash practically since the hype train started. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago People can see the trends and see how it will probably break down in some way, the problem is that the market can stay irrational longer than we can stay solvent. It helps that these dipshits seem to have forgotten that money equals abstract resources and creating new resource issues that'll certainly put pressure on them in a more direct way either through legislation or via sabotage of required infrastructure. permalink fedilink source parent [–] daddycool@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago It's the biggest bubble seen to date. It has all the characteristics, and it will crash eventually. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago People can see the trends and see how it will probably break down in some way, the problem is that the market can stay irrational longer than we can stay solvent. It helps that these dipshits seem to have forgotten that money equals abstract resources and creating new resource issues that'll certainly put pressure on them in a more direct way either through legislation or via sabotage of required infrastructure. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] daddycool@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago It's the biggest bubble seen to date. It has all the characteristics, and it will crash eventually. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BreakerSwitch@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago Is this a thing? Because what comes to mind for me is "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent," which just happens sometimes permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Whostosay@sh.itjust.works 64 points 6 months ago The term was well established centuries ago. FRAUD permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com 43 points 6 months ago (1 child) Yes there is: it's a Ponzi scheme (AI companies will fail when they get no new funds to pay off the stockholders) permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] jaybone@lemmy.zip 8 points 6 months ago (2 children) Are they paying off stockholders? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Rothe@piefed.social 8 points 6 months ago They are creating staggering shortsighted profits, so yes, they are doing that. And of course ignoring what a bubble does in the long run. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 6 months ago Those who bail out only. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] jaybone@lemmy.zip 8 points 6 months ago (2 children) Are they paying off stockholders? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] Rothe@piefed.social 8 points 6 months ago They are creating staggering shortsighted profits, so yes, they are doing that. And of course ignoring what a bubble does in the long run. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 6 months ago Those who bail out only. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Rothe@piefed.social 8 points 6 months ago They are creating staggering shortsighted profits, so yes, they are doing that. And of course ignoring what a bubble does in the long run. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Goodlucksil@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 point 6 months ago Those who bail out only. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] dust_accelerator@discuss.tchncs.de 33 points 6 months ago I like electron finance Their exact location cannot be pinpointed; instead, they exist in a probability cloud where they are likely to be found at any given time. That's what this hype cycle is founded on. If I lend you $5, you have $5 you can lend further. Now, we each still have a right to $5, so we can lend that debt obligation again for $4.50. Now we have, somehow, a market value of $19. Until someone looks, then it's probably 0. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] sefra1@lemmy.zip 24 points 6 months ago* Unfortunately there’s no good term for that, I guess. Market manipulation? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 22 points 6 months ago (1 child) It's a racket, plain and simple. There used to be laws against this sort if thing. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 16 points 6 months ago It's a racket, plain and simple. There used to be laws against this sort if thing. Keyword: used to I hope that it was worth it, and that America is great again. Let me just check some news articles... Oh my permalink fedilink source parent
[–] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 16 points 6 months ago It's a racket, plain and simple. There used to be laws against this sort if thing. Keyword: used to I hope that it was worth it, and that America is great again. Let me just check some news articles... Oh my permalink fedilink source parent
[–] gressen@lemmy.zip 20 points 6 months ago It is a shortage caused by artificial demand rise. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 9 points 6 months ago A mismatch between supply and demand is called a shortage. The source is irrelevant. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] anomnom@sh.itjust.works 7 points 6 months ago* Supply monopolization? Consumer fraud? Sherman Act cartel market manipulation. Section 1 of the Sherman Act prohibits price fixing and the operation of cartels, and prohibits other collusive practices that unreasonably restrain trade. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Appoxo@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 6 months ago We have RAM supply shortage. Now better? god... permalink fedilink source parent
[–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 2 points 6 months ago (2 children) It’s shitty AI companies buying RAM It's greedy manufacturers selling it all to them in the first place and other market segments be damned. I'm no AI fan but the manufactures aren't angels either. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] AA5B@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago The shovel makers and shovel sellers always get rich in a gold rush permalink fedilink source parent [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (1 child) If your boss offered you a raise for the same work, would you turn it down? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Not the same. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (1 child) The money is fixed. You getting a raise means the money has to come from somewhere- which means the boss taking a pay cut or the customers paying more. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Still not the same, i don't work for any of those manufacturers - and if i did i sure as hell wouldn't care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers. Won't someone please pity the CEOs... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago I'm referring to the relationship between someone offering you more money for the same work the difference of which gets passed on to consumers. A few consumers are going to a business and offering more money for the same work. The consumer is the business's boss just like your boss might offer you more money. You aren't going to turn down the raise because it will hurt other consumers just like the business isn't going to turn down the money even though it will cost other consumers more. and if i did i sure as hell wouldn’t care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers I brought that up because that wasn't going to happen. If you get a raise, your boss isn't going to take a paycut to make it happen. The raise comes from the consumers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] AA5B@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago The shovel makers and shovel sellers always get rich in a gold rush permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (1 child) If your boss offered you a raise for the same work, would you turn it down? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Not the same. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (1 child) The money is fixed. You getting a raise means the money has to come from somewhere- which means the boss taking a pay cut or the customers paying more. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Still not the same, i don't work for any of those manufacturers - and if i did i sure as hell wouldn't care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers. Won't someone please pity the CEOs... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago I'm referring to the relationship between someone offering you more money for the same work the difference of which gets passed on to consumers. A few consumers are going to a business and offering more money for the same work. The consumer is the business's boss just like your boss might offer you more money. You aren't going to turn down the raise because it will hurt other consumers just like the business isn't going to turn down the money even though it will cost other consumers more. and if i did i sure as hell wouldn’t care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers I brought that up because that wasn't going to happen. If you get a raise, your boss isn't going to take a paycut to make it happen. The raise comes from the consumers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Not the same. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (1 child) The money is fixed. You getting a raise means the money has to come from somewhere- which means the boss taking a pay cut or the customers paying more. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Still not the same, i don't work for any of those manufacturers - and if i did i sure as hell wouldn't care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers. Won't someone please pity the CEOs... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago I'm referring to the relationship between someone offering you more money for the same work the difference of which gets passed on to consumers. A few consumers are going to a business and offering more money for the same work. The consumer is the business's boss just like your boss might offer you more money. You aren't going to turn down the raise because it will hurt other consumers just like the business isn't going to turn down the money even though it will cost other consumers more. and if i did i sure as hell wouldn’t care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers I brought that up because that wasn't going to happen. If you get a raise, your boss isn't going to take a paycut to make it happen. The raise comes from the consumers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago (1 child) The money is fixed. You getting a raise means the money has to come from somewhere- which means the boss taking a pay cut or the customers paying more. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Still not the same, i don't work for any of those manufacturers - and if i did i sure as hell wouldn't care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers. Won't someone please pity the CEOs... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago I'm referring to the relationship between someone offering you more money for the same work the difference of which gets passed on to consumers. A few consumers are going to a business and offering more money for the same work. The consumer is the business's boss just like your boss might offer you more money. You aren't going to turn down the raise because it will hurt other consumers just like the business isn't going to turn down the money even though it will cost other consumers more. and if i did i sure as hell wouldn’t care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers I brought that up because that wasn't going to happen. If you get a raise, your boss isn't going to take a paycut to make it happen. The raise comes from the consumers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] 0x0@lemmy.zip 0 points 6 months ago (1 child) Still not the same, i don't work for any of those manufacturers - and if i did i sure as hell wouldn't care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers. Won't someone please pity the CEOs... permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago I'm referring to the relationship between someone offering you more money for the same work the difference of which gets passed on to consumers. A few consumers are going to a business and offering more money for the same work. The consumer is the business's boss just like your boss might offer you more money. You aren't going to turn down the raise because it will hurt other consumers just like the business isn't going to turn down the money even though it will cost other consumers more. and if i did i sure as hell wouldn’t care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers I brought that up because that wasn't going to happen. If you get a raise, your boss isn't going to take a paycut to make it happen. The raise comes from the consumers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world 1 point 6 months ago I'm referring to the relationship between someone offering you more money for the same work the difference of which gets passed on to consumers. A few consumers are going to a business and offering more money for the same work. The consumer is the business's boss just like your boss might offer you more money. You aren't going to turn down the raise because it will hurt other consumers just like the business isn't going to turn down the money even though it will cost other consumers more. and if i did i sure as hell wouldn’t care if their CEOs got a paycut to benefit the consumers I brought that up because that wasn't going to happen. If you get a raise, your boss isn't going to take a paycut to make it happen. The raise comes from the consumers. permalink fedilink source parent