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[–] 25 points 8 months ago (2 children)

This isn’t even math, just convention on rules for order of operations.

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  • [–] 1 point 8 months ago (2 children)

    Order of operations only has one rule: Bedmas (or pemdas if you're not from north america)

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    If you look at the arguments on math forums, you'll see that there isn't just one rule.

    It is a convention, and different places teach different conventions.
    Namely, some places say that PEDMAS is a very strict order. Other places say that it is PE D|M A|S, where D and M are the same level and order is left-to-right, and same with addition vs subtraction.
    And others, even in this post, say it's PEMDAS, which I have heard before.

    "Correct" and "incorrect" don't apply to conventions, it's simply a matter of if the people talking agree on the convention to use. And there are clearly at least three that highly educated people use and can't agree on.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    different places teach different conventions

    But they all teach the same rules

    some places say that PEDMAS is a very strict order

    Which is totally fine and works

    Other places say that it is PE D|M A|S,

    Which is also totally fine and works

    even in this post, say it’s PEMDAS

    Also totally fine and works

    it’s simply a matter of if the people talking agree on the convention to use

    No-one has to agree on any convention - they can use whatever they want and as long as they obey the rules it will work

    can’t agree on

    Educated people agree that which convention you use doesn't matter.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    That's not true Here is an example:
    8÷2x4
    PEMDAS: 8÷2x4 = 8÷8 = 1
    PEDMAS: 8÷2x4 = 4x4 = 16
    PE M|D A|S: 8÷2x4 = 4x4 = 16
    And thats not even getting into juxtaposition operations, where fields like physics use conventions that differ from most other field.

    but you're missing the point. It could be SAMDEP and math would still work, you'd just rearrange the equation. Just like with prefix or postfix notation. The rules don't change, just the notation conventions change. But you need to agree on the notation conventions to reach the same answer.

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago (1 child)

    That’s not true

    Yes it is

    PEDMAS: 8÷2x4 = 4x4 = 16

    Yep.

    PEMDAS: 8÷2x4 = 8÷8 = 1

    Nope. PEMDAS: 8x4÷2 = 32÷2 = 16. What you actually did is 8÷(2x4), in which you changed the sign in front of the 4 - 8÷(2x4)= 8÷2÷4 - hence your wrong answer

    PE M|D A|S: 8÷2x4 = 4x4 = 16

    Yep, same answer regardless of the order 🙄

    And thats not even getting into juxtaposition operations,

    Which I have no doubt you don't understand how to do those either, given you don't know how to even do Multiplication first in this example.

    where fields like physics use conventions that differ from most other field

    Nope! The obey all the rules of Maths. They would get wrong answers if they didn't

    you’re missing the point

    No, you are...

    It could be SAMDEP and math would still work

    No it can't because no it wouldn't 😂

    you’d just rearrange the equation.

    Says someone who didn't rearrange "PEMDAS: 8÷2x4 = 8÷8 = 1" and got the wrong answer 😂

    The rules don’t change

    Hence why "PEMDAS: 8÷2x4 = 8÷8 = 1" was wrong. You violated the rule of Left Associativity

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 child)

    Ok, then explain prefix and postfix, where these conventions don't apply. How can these be rules of math when they didn't universally apply?

    Says someone who didn't rearrange "PEMDAS

    The order of operations tells us how to interpret an equation without rearranging it. When you pick a different convention, you need to rearrange it to get the same answer. What you did was rearrange the equation, which you can only do if you are already following a specific convention.

    No it can't because no it wouldn't 😂

    All conventions can produce the correct answer, when appropriately arranged for that convention, because the conventions are not laws of mathematics, they are conventions.

    Nope! The obey all the rules of Maths. They would get wrong answers if they didn't

    They obey the laws of math. Conventions aren't laws of math, they're conventions. And a quick Google search will tell you that not everyone puts juxtaposition at a higher precedent than multiplication; it's a convention. As long as people are using the same convention, they'll agree on an answer and that answer is correct.

    You can be mean all you like, that doesn't change the nature of conventions

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  • [–] 0 points 8 months ago* (1 child)

    Ok, then explain prefix and postfix, where these conventions don’t apply

    The conventions don't apply, the rules still apply. Maths notation and the rules of Maths aren't the same thing.

    How can these be rules of math when they didn’t universally apply?

    The rules do universally apply 🙄

    The order of operations tells us how to interpret an equation without rearranging it

    Yep, and you showed you don't know the rules 🙄

    When you pick a different convention, you need to rearrange it to get the same answer

    Not necessarily, though it makes it easier (but also leads a lot of people to make mistakes with signs, as you found out 😂 )

    What you did was rearrange the equation

    To show you how to correctly do "Multiplication first". 🙄

    which you can only do if you are already following a specific convention

    Which you didn't, hence why you ended up with a wrong answer. 🙄 There is no textbook which says put the multiplication in Brackets if doing "Multiplication first", none.

    because the conventions are not laws of mathematics, they are conventions

    And putting the Multiplication inside Brackets isn't a convention anywhere 🙄

    They obey the laws of math. Conventions aren’t laws of math, they’re conventions

    Yep, and you ignored both, hence your wrong answer 🙄

    And a quick Google search will tell you that not everyone puts juxtaposition at a higher precedent than multiplication

    And a quick look in the Google support forum will show you many people telling them that is wrong, and Google just closes the incident 🙄

    it’s a convention

    No it isn't. It's against the rules. 🙄 Again, you won't find this alleged "convention" in any Maths textbook

    As long as people are using the same convention, they’ll agree on an answer and that answer is correct

    Unless they disobeyed the rules, in which case they are all wrong 🙄

    You can be mean all you like, that doesn’t change the nature of conventions

    And you can be as ignorant of the rules and conventions of Maths as much as you want, and it's not going to change that your answer is wrong 🙄

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, you clearly don't even know what a convention is, and what are math conventions and math "rules" as you put it.

    You're wrong, and even a 2 minute Google search would show you that and explain why. I'm done being Google for you when you're not willing to Google it yourself.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah, you clearly don’t even know what a convention is, and what are math conventions and math “rules” as you put it

    Says person who actually doesn't know the difference, as per Maths textbooks

    You’re wrong

    oh no! you better start contacting all the textbook publishers and tell them that all Maths textbooks are wrong 😂

    even a 2 minute Google search would show you that and explain why

    Even a 2 minute Google search will bring up Maths textbooks which prove that Google is wrong 🙄

    I’m done being Google for you

    Maths teachers don't use Google - that's what Maths textbooks are for

    when you’re not willing to Google it yourself

    says person who was unwilling to use Google to find Maths textbooks 🙄

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Wikipedia

    In mathematics and computer programming, the order of operations is a collection of conventions about which arithmetic operations to perform first in order to evaluate a given mathematical expression

    What's that? You don't trust Wikipedia?
    Ok, you've yet to explain why notations like prefix and postfix dont need these "rules".
    If they were rules of mathematics **itself** how could they only apply to certain notations?

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Wikipedia

    isn't a Maths textbook 🙄 far out, did you learn English from Wikipedia too? You sure seem to have trouble understanding the words Maths textbook

    You don’t trust Wikipedia?

    The site that you just quoted which is proven wrong by Maths textbooks, THAT Wikipedia?? 🤣🤣🤣

    you’ve yet to explain why notations like prefix and postfix dont need these “rules”.

    Umm, they do need the rules! 😂

    how could they only apply to certain notations?

    They don't, they apply to all notations 🙄

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    They don't, they apply to all notations

    I love how confident you are about something you clearly have no knowledge of.
    Adorable.

    Well, you made a good effort. At least if we're judging by word count.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I love how confident you are about something you clearly have no knowledge of.

    says person confidently proving they have no knowledge of it to a Maths teacher 🤣

    At least if we’re judging by word count

    from Maths textbooks, which for you still stands at 0

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (2 children)

    To a "maths teacher"

    Yeah sure
    A "teacher" who doesn't know that all lessons are simplifications that get corrected at a higher level, and confidentiality refers to children's textbook as an infallible source of college level information.

    A "teacher" incapable of differentiating between rules of a convention and the laws of mathematics.

    A "teacher" incapable of looking up information on notations of their own specialization, and synthesizing it into coherent response.

    Uh huh, sounds totally legit

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  • [–] 3 points 7 months ago

    Don't bother mate. Even if you corner them on something, they absolutely will not budge.

    I like many others brought up calculators and how common basic calculators only evaluate from left to right. They contend that this is not true and that calculators have always been able to obey order of operations. I even linked the manuals of two different calculators which both had this operation.

    He asserted (without evidence) that the first does not operate in this way (even though the manual says that you must re-order some expressions so that bracketed sub-expressions come first). He then characterised the second as a "chain calculator" for "niche purposes". So he admits it works left-to-right, but still will not admit that he was wrong about his claim.

    This calculator thing is not central to the discussion on order of operations, but it goes to show: you will not convince him of anything no matter what the evidence is.

    By the way, after reading a few of his comments, I believe I can summarise his whackadoodle understanding if you want to continue tilting at windmills: he fundamentally cannot separate mathematics from the notation. Thus he distinguishes many things which are the same but which are written differently.

    • He calls a×b multiplication and ab a product. These are, of course, the exact same thing. Within a mathematical expression, the implicit multiplication in ab can, by some conventions, have a higher precedence than does the explicit multiplication in a×b, and he has taken that to mean that they are fundamentally different.
    • He thinks that a(b+c)=ab+bc is something to do with notation, not a fundamental relationship between multiplication and addition. (This is not a difference for him though). This he calls the "distributive law" which he distinguishes from the "distributive property" (I will say that no author would distinguish those two terms, because they're just too easily confused. And many authors explicitly say that one is also known as the other). He says that a×(b+c) = ab + bc is an instance of the "distributive property".
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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (1 child)

    A “teacher” who doesn’t know that all lessons are simplifications that get corrected at a higher level,

    As opposed to a Maths teacher who knows there are no corrections made at a higher level. Go ahead and look for a Maths textbook which includes one of these mysterious "corrections" that you refer to - I'll wait 😂

    refers to children’s textbook as an infallible source of college level information

    A high school Maths textbook most certainly is an infallible source of "college level" information, given it contains the exact same rules 😂

    A “teacher” incapable of differentiating between rules of a convention and the laws of mathematics

    Well, that's you! 😂 The one who quoted Wikipedia and not a Maths textbook 😂

    A “teacher” incapable of looking up information on notations of their own specialization

    You again 😂 Wikipedia isn't a Maths textbook

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Man, this whole post has been embarrassing for you. Oof.

    I can't help but notice youve once again failed to address prefix and postfix notations.
    And that you've not actually made any argument other than "nuh uh"
    Not to mention the other threads you've been in. Yikes.

    We can all tell you're not a maths teacher.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Man, this whole post has been embarrassing for you

    Nope. I'm the only one who has backed up what they've said with Maths textbooks 🙄

    I can’t help but notice youve once again failed to address prefix and postfix notations.

    What is it that you want addressed?

    And that you’ve not actually made any argument other than “nuh uh”

    Backed up by Maths textbooks 🙄

    We can all tell you’re not a maths teacher

    Says person who actually isn't a Maths teacher, hence no textbooks 😂

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    Your argument you haven't made is backed up by math textbooks you haven't provided written for children.

    What is it that you want addressed?

    How can that specific order of operations be a law of mathematics if it only applies to infix notation, and not prefix or postfix notations? Laws of mathematics are universal across notations.

    Show me a textbook that discusses other notations and also says that order of operations is a law of mathematics.
    You don't have it, and you also aren't a maths teacher, or a teacher at all. Just because you say it a lot doesn't make it true.

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Your argument you haven’t made is backed up by math textbooks you haven’t provided written for children

    That's quite a word salad. You wanna try that again, but make sense this time?

    Your argument you haven’t made

    If I didn't make it then it's not my argument, it's somebody else's 😂

    is backed up by math textbooks you haven’t provided

    as well as the textbooks I have provided 😂

    written for children

    All my textbooks are for teenagers and adults

    How can that specific order of operations be a law of mathematics if it only applies to infix notation, and not prefix or postfix notations

    I already addressed that here. I knew you were making up that I hadn't addressed something 🙄

    Laws of mathematics are universal across notations

    Correct, they do.

    also says that order of operations is a law of mathematics.

    If you think it's not a Law, then all you have to do is give an example which proves it isn't. I'll wait

    You don’t have it

    You mean you don't have a counter-example which proves it's not a Law

    you also aren’t a maths teacher

    says liar

    Just because you say it a lot doesn’t make it true.

    You know you just saying it's not true doesn't make it not true, right? 🤣🤣🤣

    BTW, going back to when you said

    8÷2x4 PEMDAS: 8÷2x4 = 8÷8 = 1

    Here it is from a textbook I came across this week which proves I was right that you did it wrong 😂

    Therefore, doing Multiplication first for 8÷2x4 is {(8x4)÷2}, not 8÷(2x4) - whatever you want to do first, you write first - exactly as I told you to begin with 🙄

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    That screenshot calls it a convention you troll.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    That screenshot calls it a convention you troll

    says the actual troll, who didn't notice it was talking about left to right,. which is indeed a convention which it is explaining 🤣🤣🤣

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    In your screenshot of a textbook, they refer to it as a convention twice.

    And you still haven't explained prefix or postfix notation not having order of operations.

    Get rekd idiot

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    In your screenshot of a textbook, they refer to it as a convention twice

    Left to right is a convention, yes, doing Multiplication and Division before Addition and Subtraction is a rule 🙄

    And you still haven’t explained prefix or postfix notation not having order of operations

    For the 3rd time it does have order of operations 🙄 You just do them in some random order do you? No wonder you don't know how Maths works

    Get rekd idiot

    says person who doesn't know the difference between conventions and rules, and thinks postfix notation doesn't have rules 🙄

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (5 children)

    Left to right is a convention, yes, doing Multiplication and Division before Addition and Subtraction is a rule 🙄

    A claim entirely unsupported by the textbook example you provided. Nowhere does it say that one is a convention but not the other, it only says that removing brackets changes the meaning in some situations, which is fully within the scope of a convention.

    For the 3rd time it does have order of operations 🙄You just do them in some random order do you?

    There you go again, just admitting you don't know what postfix and prefix notations are.
    If you're ordering your operations based what the operator is, like PEDMAS, then what you're doing isn't prefix or postfix.

    I'll tell you what, here is a great free article from Colorado State university talking about prefix, postfix, and infix notations.
    Note how it says the rules about operator precedence are for the notation which itself is a convention, as all notations are, and how prefix and postfix don't need those rules

    says person who doesn't know the difference between conventions and rules, and thinks postfix notation doesn't have rules 🙄

    How embarrassing for you.
    Here are some more materials:

    But to top it all off, if this was truely a law of mathematics, then show me a proof, theorem, or even a mathematical conjecture, about order of operations.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    But to top it all off, if this was truely a law of mathematics, then show me a proof, theorem, or even a mathematical conjecture, about order of operations.

    Our friend doesn't know what a mathematical proof is, and will instead try to give you an example in which he posits a real-world calculation, writes down an arithmetic expression for it according to one convention, interprets it with another, gets a different answer, and tells you this is "proof" that it's wrong.

    When I explained to him how you could write down the expression according to a different convention, then interpret it with the same convention and get the same answer, he just denied, denied, denied, with no sign of understanding.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    Our friend doesn’t know what a mathematical proof is,

    says person who doesn't know enough about Maths to prove the order of operations rules, which literally anyone can do for themselves if they know all the operator and grouping symbols definitions 🤣🤣🤣

    will instead try to give you an example in which he posits a real-world calculation, writes down an arithmetic expression for it according to one convention, interprets it with another, gets a different answer, and tells you this is “proof” that it’s wrong

    I have no idea who you're talking about, but it ain't me! 😂

    writes down an arithmetic expression for it according to

    the definitions of the operators 🙄

    When I explained to him

    was precisely nothing

    how you could write down the expression according to a different convention, then interpret it with the same convention and get the same answer, he just denied, denied, denied

    What you mean is I actually proved you wrong about "different conventions" (noted you still don't know the difference between conventions and rules), but you're pretending it never happened 🙄

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    And yet you were unable to reply with a proof. So sad.

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (1 child)

    And yet you were unable to reply with a proof. So sad

    Says person unable to point out in what way it wasn't a proof, so sad 🤣🤣🤣

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  • [–] 0 points 7 months ago (1 child)

    I've given you the definition of a proof before, if you can't work out why what you wrote doesn't match you just can't do maths.

    That's ok, as Barbie taught us "math is hard!"

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  • [–] 1 point 7 months ago (3 children)

    I’ve given you the definition of a proof before

    You gave the defintion of one kind of proof. I'll take that as an admission then that you can't fault any of my proofs, since you can't point out anything wrong with any of them, only that they don't use the only proof method you know of, having forgotten the other proof methods that were taught to you in high school 🤣🤣🤣

    if you can’t work out why what you wrote doesn’t match

    I already know why it doesn't match, that doesn't make it not a proof, DUUUUHHH!!! 🤣🤣🤣 You need to go back to high school and learn about the other methods of proof that we use. You only seem to know the one you use in your little bubble.

    you just can’t do maths.

    Says person who only knows of ONE way to prove anything in Maths! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! 🤣🤣🤣

    Taken as an admission that I have indeed proved my points then, as I already knew was the case.

    That’s ok, as Barbie taught us “math is hard!”

    Is THAT why you only know ONE method of proof - you learnt from Barbie??? 🤣🤣🤣

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