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clown circus party (thelemmy.club)
submitted 9 months ago by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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[–] 28 points 9 months ago (2 children)

"China Executes 14 Billionaires in 8 Years, Culture News Reports"

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-07-23/china-executes-14-billionaires-in-8-years-culture-news-reports

https://archive.ph/SLDDg

Sounds like they have their billionaire class under control. Over an 8 year period they executed something like nearly 5% but definitely more than 2.5% of the billionaire class for criminality.

You project your understanding of the lawless billionaires of the West to China when their system simply does not work the same. Chinese billionaires face significant consequences for malfeasance and their class is closely controlled by the Party which they aren't not even allowed to join. Their class is only allowed to join the non-voting advisory body called the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference (CCPCC) where they can make legislative proposals for the CPC to review.

So to review as a class their political influence is subordinated to the workers party and when they break the law they are held accountable, they are even executed for serious crimes.

The billionaire class of China is incomparable to the lawless corrupt class of criminal billionaires that we have in the West

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    "USA put the Enron guys in jail, it's proof they have their billionaire class under control"

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Is there some substantial way in which billionaires in China have political power and conform a ruling class? Because I figure in the US billionaires are the ruling class, the president is one, yet in China billionaires are always scared that they are at the people's mercy and can have it all taken away at any point.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Billionaires in USA are the same way, or did you fail to notice the parade of billionaires prostrating themselves on Trump and kissing the ring? The mere existence of Billionaires is evidence of a failed system, and of definite non-existence of socialism.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    You think in the US the state controls the billionaires?

    Also I'm pretty sure Cuba is still socialist even though billionaires exist outside of Cuba. Hell, some of those billionaires might somehow own shares in enterprises that exist in Cuba, which would mean there's workers in Cuba being exploited by capitalist billionaires. Does that make Cuba no longer socialist? Would it become not-socialist if the billionaires were Cuban instead (which would be preferable to being exploited by foreign imperialists, by the way)?

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    You think in the US the state controls the billionaires?

    I think It's a mutually beneficial relationship. The state can hurt the billionaires, and they can hurt the state. Both of these come at a cost to oneself, so they prefer cooperating for their class interest. Like Chinese billionaires do with their party partners. It's only the ones who cause too much of a ruckus due to greed that get cut down. The others are coddled, like every other capitalist project.

    Also I'm pretty sure Cuba is still socialist even though billionaires exist outside of Cub[...]Does that make Cuba no longer socialist?

    Yes.

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  • [–] 4 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    I think It's a mutually beneficial relationship. The state can hurt the billionaires, and they can hurt the state. Both of these come at a cost to oneself, so they prefer cooperating for their class interest.

    I guess I don't think you are totally incorrect but this is a bad analysis regardless. You're painting this as if it was a totally reciprocal and symmetric situation. The US state is totally subservient to the billionaire class: this is evident in its financial policy, foreign policy, down to the way elections are run. The actions you may point to as counterexamples are either capitalist infighting (e.g. the tech capitalists cannibalizing media, monopolization) or the state pushing one capitalist in line to protect the collective interests of all the others. In any long term frame, the US state does nothing but protect its capitalists. That's what the state exists to do.

    Like Chinese billionaires do with their party partners. It's only the ones who cause too much of a ruckus due to greed that get cut down. The others are coddled, like every other capitalist project.

    These 2 sentences are an error that can only be made by missing the forest for the trees as you did in the beginning of your reply. Do you really think the PRC operates with the same guiding principles and historical outlook as the imperialist US state? Looking at the news must be very confusing for you!

    Also, you reject Cuban socialism? Do you think socialism is supposed to exist in the real world or is it just for intellectual masturbation?

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I don't think my analysis is wrong. The state and capitalists are and have always been partners, this is why you cannot defeat one without defeating the other. This is why the so-called "AES" like the PRC are still, ultimately, just another form of capitalism.

    The fact that different capitalist experiments can take infinite amount of forms, some with more human face, and some with less, doesn't make them less capitalist.

    Also, you reject Cuban socialism? Do you think socialism is supposed to exist in the real world or is it just for intellectual masturbation?

    I think it's supposed to exist in the real world and that it currently doesn't. I don't label places which are not it, "socialism" just because they say nice things while doing capitalist exploitation.

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    But that's not what global south socialism is. If there is a global project to establish the sovereignty of exploited and impoverished nations, first with a combined effort of the national bourgeoisie with the workers and the peasantry, socialists across the world should support it. That's what's already happened and you can clearly see that the power the national bourgeoisies gained in the global south after throwing off the yoke of colonialism was either itself significantly weakened through socialist revolution, or it grew to the point of facilitating continued extraction as neocolonies. In the case of the nations that had socialist leadership curb the power of the new bourgeoisie (Cuba, Nicaragua, Burkina Faso, Vietnam, Tanzania, etc) none of them were able to simply do away with capitalist exploitation entirely. Demanding that they do such a thing is ahistorical, and it misses the point of their revolutions as being, principally, about taking political power into the hands of the people and away from colonizers. Should all of those projects be condemned because they didn't have a time machine to jump 800 years in the future to the point where they could avoid all those problems entirely?

    It's completely non-actionable and facile to apply criticism of every socialist nation on the basis that some form or another of exploitation still exists inside of them. If there was a way to have the productive forces to get everyone fed, housed, and healed overnight then sure, you're totally right! It's abhorrent that some workers in Cuba work in private businesses that make profit off their surplus value! They should simply abolish the value-commodity form!

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  • [–] 3 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    I am not condemning them. I am merely saying that they're not socialist. Struggle to throw off the yoke of colonialism is commendable, whatever form it takes, whether liberal capitalist, or nationalist or state capitalist. It's still capitalism though and no matter how much benefit it brings initially due to the liberalism and industrialization, it will inevitably degenerate to the detriments of those under it's yoke. I just have my eyes open and suggest those people agitate towards socialism. I don't tell them to just "trust the plan" just because their exploiters are flying a red flag.

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    But their exploiters don't fly a red flag. The state which flies a red flag, the democratically elected governments with extremely high approval ratings, are obviously not the exploiters.

    If you go to Cuba and ask around, the problems people might have with the government are probably gonna be related to censorship, not exploitation. The blame for people's economic woes will, unless you talk with a very confused person, be placed on the US blockade. It might be true that for the Cubans who work in a private business, they're being exploited by their bosses, but that's really not a primary concern because the conflict between countries is a much larger issue for everyone in the island. That's true in most of the global south, really, the exploitation done by the owners of little enterprises is very small compared the the larger problem of a nation's resources and sovereignty being trespassed. Those are conditions that make the abolition of capitalist exploitation impossible.

    I think that it makes sense for the people in the global south socialist countries to keep their trust in their democratic governments. They're individually incapable of launching some kind of assault on US empire to bring it down, so this is just necessarily a slow process where more places in the world will slowly break away from the US, and the empire will collapse in time. Until then, would it really make sense for anyone to light molotov cocktails in Beijing, Havana, or Caracas? You realize that's exactly what the CIA wants?

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  • [–] -1 points 9 months ago (3 children)

    Sounds like they have their billionaire class under control.

    Yeah... just like the old royals of Europe once thought they had the merchant classes under control, eh?

    Do tell tankie... how far is China in the "capitalism-to-socialism" pipeline by now?

    Somewhere in the middle, maybe?

    Why don't you just admit that you don't actually believe in concepts such as socialism and communism at all?

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  • [–] 20 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Yeah... just like the old royals of Europe once thought they had the merchant classes under control, eh?

    we can show you evidence that the capitalist class in China is clearly subordinated to communist party interests but you'll just default to this non-thinking shit anyway so what's the point

    western "anarchists" (whose posts histories are all NATO leftist shit, wahh wahhh the uighers etc) gonna keep malding, China's responsible for literally all gains against poverty worldwide since the fucking 1980s, workers seeing 500% increases in average wages while standards of living are already higher than in the west (if you're not too fucking ignorant to actually see what's in front of your eyes)

    keep malding over THE TANKIES

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    we can show you evidence that the capitalist class in China

    Oh?

    China has a capitalist class, do they?

    You certain you want to admit to that?

    Really, really sure?

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  • [–] 16 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    monkey-typewriter

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  • [–] 14 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Why don't you just admit that you don't actually believe in concepts such as socialism and communism at all?

    Why don't you admit this, dipshit?

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Because you're the tankie demonstrating your hypocrisy for all to see. Not me.

    So again... why don’t you just admit that you don’t actually believe in concepts such as socialism and communism at all?

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  • [–] 15 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    No I'm not. Learn to read usernames, dumbass.

    I am, in fact, a communist, which is why I support a country that actually executes billionaires for misbehaving.

    Oh, I'm sorry, is it too "tankie" to execute billionaires?

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Learn to read usernames, dumbass.

    I read yours. Twice. Are you as inane as your username suggests?

    a country that actually executes billionaires for misbehaving.

    Which billionaires are they executing, tankie?

    American ones? Japanese ones? German ones, perhaps?

    Mind clearing that up for me?

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    Which billionaires are they executing, tankie?

    Are you so lazy that you can't even read the article you were linked? Just read it, it's not that long.

    And what is your point here, anyway? Are you pro- or anti-billionaire? It's really weird that you're getting all upset about China executing billionaires, but here you are accusing everyone else of not being a real communist. Are billionaires a good thing or a bad thing? Pick a fucking lane already, lib.

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  • [–] 0 points 9 months ago (2 children)

    Just read it, it’s not that long.

    No.

    And what is your point here, anyway?

    So again… why don’t you just admit that you don’t actually believe in concepts such as socialism and communism at all?

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago* (1 child)

    What a surprise, you are incapable of reading anything that might challenge your worldview in the slightest and proud of your ignorance despite everyone's attempt at teaching you something.

    Suck off me, liberal.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    Don't wanna answer that one, tankie? I don't blame you.

    Fine. Answer this one.

    How far is China in the “capitalism-to-socialism” pipeline by now (in your estimation)?

    Somewhere in the middle, maybe?

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  • [–] 9 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    Fine. Answer this one.

    Nah I'm good, you don't want to answer my questions so I'm not going to answer yours. Go be a debatelord somewhere else.

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  • [–] 1 point 9 months ago (1 child)

    Can't handle that one either, eh?

    This seems to be a running them amonst your ilk. Fine. Try this one again.

    Which billionaires are they executing?

    Polish ones? Israeli ones? South African ones, perhaps?

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  • [–] 10 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I don't believe in any political idealogies. I am a sceptic and committed to the advancement of humanity along whatever line brings the most good to the most people. China embodies this more than my home country or any of its allies. If your politcal dogma is more important to you than people I cant help you man. Unlike you I'm not married to any country or belief system.

    When liberals like you LARP as communists or anarchists or whatever your brains and critical thinking completely shut down when comparing the West and China. You become as dogmatic as fundamentalist Christians on this subject.

    Its like you know you are cucked by your ruling class and you are angry about the corruption and exploitation. Aware of. your own impotence you project your anger at other countries as a release valve.

    "Do tell libcuck: do you think calling people names is persuasive? Do you think simping for the American empire will bring about communism and socialism?" ^this is how you sound

    I bet if any other world government executed between 2.5% and 5% of a class in its country you would call it a genocide or crimes against humanity, but China executing criminal billionaires at that rate doesn't even register to you as strict state control.

    I'm surprised a frothing at the mouth China hater like you wouldn't even use this as an opportunity to criticize their overuse of the death penalty. Keep your eyes on the ball dude, you could have been hammering China for being authoritarian mass murderers but instead it's, "nuh uh! Expecting nearly 1 out of 20 billionaires doesn't constitute control!" Fucking clown

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  • [–] 2 points 9 months ago (1 child)

    I don’t believe in any political idealogies.

    Oh look... a tankie going full liberal.

    Colour me surprised.

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