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American "left" and "liberal" can't decide if they're in the same nutshell. (lemmy.world)
submitted 1 year ago* by to c/politicalmemes@lemmy.world
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[–] -5 points 1 year ago* (14 children)

Liberal means advocate of human rights, bare definition. If there is at all an ownership class then liberalism is not being administrated. And I assure you, the word "Capitalism" on Lemmy is used the vast majority of the time as a dogwhistle for "Western Nation".

In what way does exchanging money for goods cause outlawing gay marriage or banning books? In what way does it cause not taxing the rich? Makes no goddamn sense. Authoritarianism and Conservatives cause those things.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (12 children)

    Liberal means advocate of human rights

    Not unless you're creating your own personal definition. At best, liberalism means advocating for individual rights, and where you or I might disagree with the application of that idea is where individual rights are in tension with communal or collective rights more broadly

    In what way does exchanging money for goods cause outlawing gay marriage or banning books?

    Markets are not the same as capitalism. It's a description of a system that enshrines abstract ownership over systems of production. If you dont take issue with the coercive mechanisms within capital relations, then im not really sure where to put you 'on the left'.

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    Mandated, unconditional individual rights ARE collective rights and also human rights.

    You also appear to no know the definition of Capitalism because if Capitalism is not a regulated Market System then the USA is also not a capitalism. Not surprising since you people use it as a dog whistle to mean "western nation" that you lack understanding of what it actually means.

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  • [–] 4 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Mandated, unconditional individual rights ARE collective rights and also human rights

    Not when those rights are in conflict with another individual's. The classic example is the individual right to private property, but there are many others. American liberals do recognize these limits and contradictions, but accept as granted the right to private property. It's the center tenet of leftist critique, so it makes a lot of sense why there's a lot of cynicism about liberals claiming to occupy the same space. Sure, they have some overlap, but the main contention is left unaddressed by American liberals and so leave themselves open to derision.

    if Capitalism is not a regulated Market System then the USA is also not a capitalism

    It's a type of regulated market system, but it's defined by its mode of production being capitalist in nature. Socialist and communist systems still employ regulated markets, but collectivize ownership over productive capital instead. Abolishing capitalism isn't a way of saying we should abolish markets, but to remove capital as the mode of production

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  • [–] -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

    If rights to one person contradict the rights of another, resulting in loss and harm then guess what? Individual rights aren't being mandated and upheld and that's not Liberalism.

    Socialist and communist systems still employ regulated markets, but collectivize ownership over productive capital instead.

    No, they don't, because that has never existed and will never if you keep bending over backwards to dictators.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    If rights to one person contradict the rights of another, resulting in loss and harm then guess what? Individual rights aren't being mandated and upheld and that's not Liberalism

    I dont think you're getting it, honestly. There are a ton of examples where liberalism exposes tensions between individual and collective rights, and most of them revolve around the right to property. Liberal democracies are constantly having to enforce new regulations because capital owners are constantly finding new ways to abuse their ownership of property in ways that harm others. You can say all you want that isn't 'true liberalism', but then what democracy would qualify then? What happens when the accumulation of wealth under liberal democracy leads to such a disparity of power that government can no longer function as a regulating body? hint, you're living it, bud

    No, they don't, because that has never existed

    Are you sure? There have been no examples of socialized systems of production?

    I think you're confusing socialist and communist states with socialist and communist systems.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Liberal democracies are constantly having to enforce new regulations because capital owners are constantly finding new ways to abuse their ownership of property in ways that harm others.

    I think you accidentally just said the antithesis to your entire argument by claiming liberals are protecting individual rights from those who would take advantage of them.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    liberals are protecting individual rights

    Yes, they are protecting individual rights to property, and that's a huge issue.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (3 children)

    Personally I think a much bigger issue is that no rights are being protected and we're devolving into a white nationalist militaristic dictatorship which refuses to tax the rich.

    But keep wingeing about the horrors of copyright laws and small scale landlords.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Nah, I can just see past the noise of nationalism to what systemic conditions gave rise to it. Thinking we can return to liberal democracy without seizing some portion of our means of production away from private ownership is nothing more than naivete.

    But keep winging about the horrors of socialism.

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