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In search of a non-electron text editor that can fold | Are emacs and (neo)vim my only options? (discuss.online)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/linux@lemmy.ml
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The following gif demonstrates folding:

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[–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (12 children)

No no, don't get me wrong. I think both Emacs and Neovim are excellent. And this little endeavor/search/pursuit has (perhaps more than anything) solidified (and gave context as to) why they're in their own league.

Like, I've tried about a dozen of text editors in last couple of days. And with most^[Heck, I've only been able to confirm that Kate and KDevelop at least do what has been advertised (by others).] of them I've failed to reproduce the functionality demonstrated in the gif.

But even the very best of what I've tried since making this post pales -or at least seems to be*- in terms of extensibility. And, when we add in Emacs' proven^[Neovim is still relatively new. I don't think I can justifiably vouch for its longevity yet.] longevity, it becomes hard to root for any of the alternatives. At least..., so far*.

Still, I had to answer for myself if committing to Emacs (or Neovim for that matter) was justified given the fact that I had not a lot of experience with text editors 😅. Like, as funny as it sounds, I've moved from Word+StickyNotes to (GNOME's) Text Editor to a bunch^[I can recall ghostwriter, MarkText and QOwnNotes.] of Markdown text editors to Emacs. And the switch to Emacs was mostly motivated when I saw Obsidian do the very thing you see in the gif 😂. But as cool as learning the ropes of Emacs was, I think I was experiencing some impostor syndrome shenanigans.

Thankfully, it seems that this has mostly served to be a huge motivation boost. Perhaps I was (more than) ready to conquer Emacs all along...

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    If you had started with that people would have told you that nothing comes even close. The closest things you will find are Atom (archived), Sublime (closed source) and Helix (still very new and no plugin support, but something to keep an eye on).

    Speaking of obsidian, the reason why it took me forever to start using Silverbullet is that Emacs has org-mode which does most of what Silverbullet/Obsidian do out of the box, plus some other stuff that they don't do (e.g. excel like tables).

    But I wanted something I could edit remotely through my phone and web interfaces are better than using text editors over ssh connections. Also I have migrated from Emacs to Nvim, the reasons are purely ergonomical (pinky fatigue is a real issue) but after switching I found a jump in the way to think about an editor. Emacs is great, don't get me wrong, and if you decide to learn Emacs I can assure you it will be the best editor you've used, but it still edits things at a character level, while there are concepts for matching brackets or quotes changing the text inside quotes in Emacs is very character oriented, I.e. go to start of quote, start marking, move to matching quote, delete, whereas in vim is sort of a higher level language where you say Change Inside Next Quote using cin", and expanded with some plugins you can even do srnq' to Surround Replace Next Quote with ' (which will change the quotations on the next text from whatever to '). And that's a lot closer to the way I think so it skips a mental step (plus it's a lot less keystrokes and no Ctrl for my pinky).

    But those are the reasons why I switched, many people use Emacs for decades without ergonomic issues, whichever of the two you decide to learn you'll understand why they're the staple editors for most people who actually choose an editor.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

    Thank you for the raving endorsement and otherwise very informative reply!

    Also I have migrated from Emacs to Nvim, the reasons are purely ergonomical (pinky fatigue is a real issue) but after switching I found a jump in the way to think about an editor. Emacs is great, don't get me wrong, and if you decide to learn Emacs I can assure you it will be the best editor you've used, but it still edits things at a character level, while there are concepts for matching brackets or quotes changing the text inside quotes in Emacs is very character oriented, I.e. go to start of quote, start marking, move to matching quote, delete, whereas in vim is sort of a higher level language where you say Change Inside Next Quote using cin", and expanded with some plugins you can even do srnq' to Surround Replace Next Quote with ' (which will change the quotations on the next text from whatever to '). And that's a lot closer to the way I think so it skips a mental step (plus it's a lot less keystrokes and no Ctrl for my pinky).

    Hmm...., interesting. I'm still pretty new to evil-mode, but doesn't that bridge the gap here? Btw, I don't know why, but I wasn't able to see for myself how cin" worked within Vim*.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (9 children)

    Yes, evil-mode would have bridged the gap, however I didn't go emacs -> vim in one step, I left emacs back in 2017 because of pinky strain, and other ergonomic issues that made me switch keyboard layout as well (which made me lose lots of agility on emacs) and started using Pycharm for python dev, VSCode for other languages (including Markdown for note taking) and nano for system file edition. I tried some of the other suggestions here like atom, sublime, Kate, etc, but they never became my everything tool like emacs used to be. Very recently I discovered Helix, and I gave it a try and loved it, however the lack of plugin support made me have reservations on diving in. But the interaction mode is very close to vim, so I decided to give vim another go and went through a few tutorials on how to set Nvim up while refreshing muscle memory for vim movements and learning new stuff and it's slowly becoming the everything tool that emacs once was for me.

    All of that being said, I don't think I would use evil-mode on Emacs, the reason is that vim is made with those motions from the ground up, whereas in emacs they will be an after-thought so it will probably not be integrated enough (or more likely will require lots of configurations).

    I wasn't able to see for myself how cin" worked within Vim*.

    It's simple, imagine you have a line of code like so:

    my_var = "some string with spaces"

    If your cursor is almost anywhere on that line pressing ci" will erase the contents of inside the string and place you in insert mode, i.e. the line will look line this:

    my_var = "|"

    With | being the cursor in insert mode. There are other similar things, for example ca" (Change Around ") will also erase the quotes, very useful for example to change a hard coded string with a variable.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

    Sorry fam for the late response! I was writing up a draft a couple of days ago, but that one somehow disappeared. Which..., is kinda peculiar as I don't recall the last time a draft spoofed out of existence. Regardless, it really puts me off to start a reply all over. As such, I've been mustering motivation since 😅. Anyhow, thank you for your patience!

    Thank you (also) for sharing your journey around the many text editors! If anything, it reminds me how life has got many surprises for us. As such, being wed to any software, regardless of how powerful it may be, may still result in a break later down the line.

    Thank you (once more) for touching on ergonomics! I haven't mentioned it, but I do experience some RSI-related pains/aches.

    Steps I've undertaken to alleviate the pains/aches. This has been put in spoilers, because I don't think it's very relevant for the subject matter.

    • I use a split keyboard, and hope to switch in the upcoming months to one of the most ergonomic keyboard around.
    • I have made changes to my workflow to become (mostly) keyboard-only, so little to no mouse/touchpad. Which led me to embrace and become more familiar with modal editing.
    • I have dabbled into the alt keyboard layouts and intend to make the switch when the aforementioned ergonomic keyboard arrives.
    • I have made many other changes to how I work in order to better align with ergonomics; laptop-stand so that it's lifted to the appropriate height, worked on better posture, only making minimal use of my phone etc. And intend to back this up further with a height-adjustable desk.
    • Employ speech to text whenever I can afford it.

    • Anyhow, I do have concerns on how Emacs' default keybindings might be detrimental on someone using a regular keyboard. I believe this article makes an interesting case on this. That's also one of the reasons why I've (almost) exclusively been on evil mode.

    I hope you've recovered completely from the strain on your pinky! And, hopefully, nothing else has been causing any issues since!

    Btw, the trick with ci" and ca" is pretty cool! Thank you for teaching me something new! FWIW, it was reproducible within Emacs' evil mode*.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    Hey, yeah, I know the feeling, every time I lose an already typed reply I completely lose motivation to rewrite it.

    Yeah, my pinky strain issue is completely gone, I also used to have some more pain on my wrist which made me go through a very similar journey to you, I took many steps for it to the point where nowadays my setup is (in order of what I think has made the largest impact)

    • Using i3/sway as my WM for a keyboard centric usage
    • Switching to Colemak and learning touch typing properly
    • Split ortholineal keyboard (crkbd)
    • Trackball instead of mouse

    I've also got a height adjustable desk and a good chair to prevent issues with my back, and my monitors use an arm to be in the right position. It was a slow process of making one change here, few months later another z etc, but this has been my setup for a few years and all of my pains in wrist, lower back, neck, etc have disappeared. I figured if I'm going to ve sitting in front of a computer typing stuff for 8h a day I need to make that as comfortable as possible to be able to do it for longer.

    As for emacs with evil mode I was sure that ci" would work, that's basic vim functionality, what I'm less sure would work is more complex stuff for which I use plugins, e.g. <space>srq" (Surround Replace Quotes with ") to replace the next quotes for " (e.g. changing var = 'some text' to var = "some text"). That same plugin allows me to also do <space>srb[ to Surround Replace Bracket/Braces with [ (to change the surrounding [, (, or { to [ ). Another plugin allows me to move to any part of the screen in 4 keystrokes, I press s the two characters of where I want to move, and a third disambiguation character and the cursor moves there. Those are advanced usages that I think will be difficult to reproduce in emacs, plus plugins will not incorporate the basic ideas for movements.

    May I ask why emacs in evil-mode instead of Nvim?

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (6 children)

    Hey, yeah, I know the feeling, every time I lose an already typed reply I completely lose motivation to rewrite it.

    Hehe, as a precaution, I wrote this up in Emacs instead 😜.

    Yeah, my pinky strain issue is completely gone

    Glad to hear that!

    Using i3/sway as my WM for a keyboard centric usage

    Curious to see this at the very top of your list. Perhaps I should make my switch to Sway rather sooner than later. Thank you for the endorsement!

    learning touch typing properly

    I intend to learn this with the alt keyboard layout after the more ergonomic split keyboard has arrived. Wish me good luck 😉!

    Trackball instead of mouse

    Hmm..., this is lower on your list. So I suppose that by effectively removing most need for a mouse, the switch to a trackball has been less impactful. Btw, perhaps related, would you happen to be aware of hints? If so, could you touch upon its relevance?

    a good chair to prevent issues with my back

    Curious. Is this a special ergonomic chair (or something)?

    It was a slow process of making one change here, few months later another z etc

    Did you advance/progress in increments because you were testing out the latest addition to the setup? And thus, only introduced a subsequent change after judging that you were not 'done' yet?

    all of my pains in wrist, lower back, neck, etc have disappeared.

    I am so glad to read this! While the journey until I am able to interact with my systems without any pain seems far away right now, success stories like yours make me so pumped to pull through.

    I figured if I'm going to ve sitting in front of a computer typing stuff for 8h a day I need to make that as comfortable as possible to be able to do it for longer.

    Couldn't agree more.

    e.g. <space>srq" (Surround Replace Quotes with ") to replace the next quotes for " (e.g. changing var = 'some text' to var = "some text"). That same plugin allows me to also do <space>srb[ to Surround Replace Bracket/Braces with [ (to change the surrounding [, (, or { to [ ).

    Interesting. FWIW, I did test this out and I believe that OOTB Doom Emacs does utilize the evil-surround package. However, I don't think it's as powerful as what you describe. Though, this could also be on me 😅.

    Another plugin allows me to move to any part of the screen in 4 keystrokes, I press s the two characters of where I want to move, and a third disambiguation character and the cursor moves there.

    Hmm..., this very closely resembles what evil-snipe does. Though, unless I'm doing something wrong, the functionality is not a single s away, but rather a g s SPC away. At least, OOTB*.

    May I ask why emacs in evil-mode instead of Nvim?

    Of course you can. Unfortunately, though, I don't exactly recall my reasonings 😅. Thankfully, I did note some of my thoughts from back when I was actively trying to decide between the two. From there, I was able to gather the following:

    • I would only try out Emacs or Neovim through a opinionated config.
    • For Emacs, Doom had kinda won over Spacemacs based on the opinions (and experiences) of others . Though, I still wanted to try out Spacemacs to judge for myself.
    • While for Neovim, LazyVim and LunarVim were the winning configs.

    What follows is not based on my notes, but from what I can remember. Shortly after I came to the above conclusions, I went out and tried to install them. But, I wanted to 'test' them without 'polluting' my system. As such, I tried to install them within a distrobox. This is where Neovim came short because of this imposed limitation. I don't 100% remember what it was, but IIRC there might have been more than 1 issue; one of which had to do with fonts. Regardless, my Neovim adventures were prematurely terminated 😅. By contrast, Emacs didn't budge an inch under these circumstances. So I was able to test out both Doom and Spacemacs without any significant issues. Since then, I have dabbled in Emacs. But the folding mentioned in the original post is what has led me to commit more seriously than ever. So, in short, it was mostly out of practical reasons.

    Btw, it's funny, but most of what you just read about my reasonings were buried memories 😂. Like, if I had to answer it on the spot -so without thinking it over or look through my notes or dig through my memories- , I would probably have stated some arbitrary technical reason (e.g. org-mode FTW) OR its proven longevity OR I don't know... something. But it couldn't be further from the truth 😅. Granted, I'm still very much enjoying Emacs. But, I shouldn't disregard/dismiss Neovim any longer. It's time to revisit this rabbit hole 😂. I should also thank you for asking the question that brought this to my attention 😊!

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Curious to see this at the very top of your list. Perhaps I should make my switch to Sway rather sooner than later. Thank you for the endorsement!

    For me it was a lot off wrist pain, so switching to a more keyboard centric way of interacting with the WM was very impactful.

    I intend to learn this with the alt keyboard layout after the more ergonomic split keyboard has arrived. Wish me good luck 😉!

    Which alternate layout are you considering? I recommend grabbing something you typed and feeding it here to check heat map of keypresses you would have done to have some visual representation of your usage.

    So I suppose that by effectively removing most need for a mouse, the switch to a trackball has been less impactful.

    Bingo, I actually switched to trackball before going to keyboard centric WM, but after it I've even gone back to mouse a few times feeling almost no difference, because I end up using the mouse a lot less.

    Btw, perhaps related, would you happen to be aware of hints? If so, could you touch upon its relevance?

    I have, not exactly it but similar stuff, I used to use a browser called conkeror that had emacs key bindings, and have tried to learn a very similar system to hints in the past. Honestly, when I has lots of wrist pain they were useful to completely remove the need of a mouse, but they're clunky and not as efficient as a pointer so I tend not to use them.

    Curious. Is this a special ergonomic chair (or something)?

    Nope, just a Secret Lab Titan Evo, but any good chair would do, I spent a year with a cheap Amazon chair and had lots of back pain.

    Did you advance/progress in increments because you were testing out the latest addition to the setup? And thus, only introduced a subsequent change after judging that you were not 'done' yet?

    It was more of a gradual thing, I had wrist pain, so I switched to a trackball, that helped but didn't got rid of it. So I tried AwesomeWM, found Conkeror and slowly the pain started to fade away and I dove deep into the keyboard centric thing learning touch typing and Colemak. Eventually other issues came on, like pinky strain from Emacs, or a different kind of wrist pain from a small keyboard that made me switch to a split one, or back pain that made me invest in a good chair. I don't think my setup is "done", it adapts to whatever my body is asking, but I've started to listen carefully and switch stuff on the early signals because that first wrist pain was an eye opener on how bad things can get if you ignore them.

    I am so glad to read this! While the journey until I am able to interact with my systems without any pain seems far away right now, success stories like yours make me so pumped to pull through.

    Do you feel pain now though? If so what? You should address that immediately. At most points I would have answered that I felt no pain with my setup, because those things build up gradually, if you're at the point of feeling pain the time to take action is now.

    About the emacs plugins, yeah, by the name I can tell you those do the same to the ones I cited, my point is that the plugin ecosystem for it might be a bit less extensive, and not sure how to set shortcuts that use vim key bindings for other plugins.

    I would only try out Emacs or Neovim through a opinionated config.

    Why? Having had an emacs config that I copied from somewhere and ended up growing and becoming something unmanageable, I'm have a very strong opinion that one should build your own config files from scratch to know them. Presets are good if you're going to be using them bare, but if you're going to customize them they can get in the way. And that's another point for Nvim for me, their configs are very easy, I followed this guide and had a working config that I could easily expand in no time.

    org-mode FTW

    Ah, I miss org-mode, it's too bad the world went with Markdown instead.

    Granted, I'm still very much enjoying Emacs. But, I shouldn't disregard/dismiss Neovim any longer. It's time to revisit this rabbit hole 😂.

    Meh, maybe, maybe not, Emacs is great, I just never would have gone with evil mode, it sort of feels like it defeats the purpose of both emacs and vim in my mind for some reason. It's like if someone told you they put a Ford engine on their Chevrolet, it feels convoluted and strange to think on that solution before thinking of using a Ford.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (4 children)

    Thank you so much for your elaborate and well-articulated reply! As I don't want these messages to spiral into an ever-expanding wall of text, I've chosen to refrain from reacting to every single valuable thing you've written. Nonetheless, everything, including the parts I'm explicitly not reacting to, has been a joy to read and has been very informative. So, again, thank you! Much appreciated!

    Which alternate layout are you considering?

    Hehe, currently, I've landed on Night.

    I recommend grabbing something you typed and feeding it here to check heat map of keypresses you would have done to have some visual representation of your usage.

    This is pretty cool! Unfortunately, (perhaps unsurprisingly) Night isn't included within its layout options. I would otherwise have loved to check this out.

    switch stuff on the early signals because that first wrist pain was an eye opener on how bad things can get if you ignore them.

    Would you like to elaborate on this? As the pains and discomfort have increased over time, I have been more conscious than previously. But, I'm sure there's still a lot of mileage to be had. Like, what do you perceive as an early signal? Exhaustion and/or fatigue after a day of work? Or perhaps something more specific?

    Furthermore, how bad did things become?

    Do you feel pain now though?

    After a couple of hours, I do experience strange sensations that border on pain. Furthermore, there's (almost) always some level of unease/discomfort. Thankfully, resting continues to feel good and I get especially revitalized after sleeping well. But I acknowledge that this isn't sustainable.

    If so what?

    Wrist pain and fingers that feel wacky. So, this is basically carpal tunnel 101. This has been confirmed/diagnosed by both the general practioner as well as the surgeon. Thankfully, the damage is relatively tame still; the surgeon didn't see much distortion/damage in the x-rays (yet). There's also no need (yet) for a surgery and (hopefully) there'll never be. Which is very much reliant on me putting in the work and effort to make this as comfortable and (by extension) sustainable as possible.

    You should address that immediately. At most points I would have answered that I felt no pain with my setup, because those things build up gradually, if you're at the point of feeling pain the time to take action is now.

    I have taken some action; but I'm still very much in the process. I'm aware it's just not enough (yet). But, the steps I've taken so far have thankfully led to significant relieve already. Like, I was a lot worse last year. And, as hinted at previously, I already have plans to address the remaining issues.

    my point is that the plugin ecosystem for it might be a bit less extensive, and not sure how to set shortcuts that use vim key bindings for other plugins.

    You could be right on the plugin ecosystem; even beyond the integration of evil-mode*. It doesn't matter which metric I throw at it, the Neovim ecosystem seems to be more vibrant. Though, at least for the time being, org-mode seems to be Emacs' forte. Which..., just happens to be the very thing I'm using it mostly for. While I'm far from being comfortable with it, it has already provided a much better experience compared to all other text editors I've tried.

    I would only try out Emacs or Neovim through a opinionated config.

    Why?

    My apologies, perhaps I should have been clearer. I didn't stress enough how this was mostly for trying it out and get going initially. I'm still on Doom Emacs, but I do intend to build my own config after I've gotten a better grasp IF it's beneficial.

    And that's another point for Nvim for me, their configs are very easy, I followed this guide and had a working config that I could easily expand in no time.

    Hahaha 🤣, I would have loved to have an up-to-date video guide like that for Emacs. Alas... 😅.

    I miss org-mode

    Hehe 😜, though I wonder: have you tried out Neorg or nvim-orgmode to see how they fare by comparison?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

    I understand, and I agree, although I'm reading all the replies are already becoming wall of text so I'll skip parts but I have read them and they're all interesting.

    I've landed on Night.

    That looks interesting, although I would be weary of learning a layout that only works on specific keyboards, it will make it hard for you to use a laptop on the go, work in an office with a normal keyboard or any other similar situation.

    Furthermore, how bad did things become?

    I think it's easier if I answer this first. At the worst I had problems holding heavy stuff in my hand, as in fingers lackesld strength or didn't respond properly. And for my lower back at the worst it was constant pain where I needed to lay down with a pillow on my lumbar to stretch. After fixing those I became very aware of the initial feelings, such as numbness or feeling pain when stretching (which btw I strongly recommend you check out wrist and finger stretching exercises as they help a lot). Lots of the changes I made (e.g. split ortholinear keyboard) were probably not needed, but the wrist pain that kickstarted everything got me worry enough that I don't want to take any chances.

    After a couple of hours, I do experience strange sensations that border on pain. Furthermore, there's (almost) always some level of unease/discomfort. Thankfully, resting continues to feel good and I get especially revitalized after sleeping well. But I acknowledge that this isn't sustainable.

    It's not, those are exactly the early signals that you asked me about, you think that because you're able to rest and stretch and it goes away that it's all fine, but it will require ever more stretching and resting until they don't go away ever. At least that's what happened to me, at the beginning I would stretch my wrist and fingers and rest for a while and be fine, eventually that became next day I'll be fine, then over the weekend, then never.

    Wrist pain and fingers that feel wacky. So, this is basically carpal tunnel 101.

    That's exactly what I had, although mine was never actually diagnosed, but I had all of the symptoms and my dad had to do the surgery so I have family history. It does get better if you adjust, I don't feel any of the symptoms I once did, and it is sustainable I haven't had any symptoms in about 10 years since I switched to a more keyboard centric flow and the layout, so putting in the work does help out. I should say I had 24 years when the symptoms first appeared, so it was kindof young which was one of the reasons I got very scared about getting those symptoms so early.

    org-mode seems to be Emacs' forte.

    Org-mode is absolutely wonderful, I haven't tried any replacement because the reason I abandoned org-mode wasn't emacs related, I kept using emacs for org-mode for a while after I dropped it as my main editor. The reason is that there's no compatibility with other editors or apps. Everything uses markdown, and for most basic stuff markdown is good enough. I do miss habit tracking, task management, table calculations and other neat stuff, but the commodity of using the same format for everything and that other people use it as well outweighs all of that for me.

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  • [–] [S] 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

    Again, I want to establish that I've learned a ton and really appreciate your writings. Thank you!

    That looks interesting, although I would be weary of learning a layout that only works on specific keyboards, it will make it hard for you to use a laptop on the go, work in an office with a normal keyboard or any other similar situation.

    Thanks for the reminder! While I can't completely ignore the main takeaway, I do find myself only rarely (read: less than 5%) engage with normal keyboards. And, AFAIU, by only adopting the exotic layout for splitting keyboards, I can keep the muscle memory for QWERTY on regular keyboards. Though, please feel free to correct me if I say something that goes against your own experiences.

    which btw I strongly recommend you check out wrist and finger stretching exercises as they help a lot

    Would you be so kind to share what has worked for your wrist? While there's no reason to assume that your exercises work out for me, I can at least discuss them with the physiotherapist. BTW, to be clear, I've already visited the physiotherapist a number of times and we've discussed exercises that I've eventually incorporated in my daily routine.

    Lots of the changes I made (e.g. split ortholinear keyboard) were probably not needed

    Question: If we focus on the split ortholinear keyboard, is only the ortholinear aspect (possibly) redundant? Or..., the split itself?

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (1 child)

    Damn, I thought I had sent the reply and it's been erased.

    I'll keep it short, muscle memory for qwerty doesn't go away that easily, at least it didn't for me, but I'm able to type blindly in qwerty (just not touch typing). Still I think that something I can use in my laptop is very useful so I can keep the ergonomics on the go.

    I don't have the exercises, it was just something someone told me to do, I'm sure whatever your doctor is telling you would be better.

    For the split vs ortholinear I think split makes more difference, whenever I use a normal keyboard I feel this, but never had any pains related to it, it's just more comfortable.

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