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If you do, why do you believe in God? (lemmy.ml)
submitted 1 year ago by to c/asklemmy@lemmy.ml
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As simple as possible to summarize the best way you can, first, please. Feel free to expand after, or just say whatever you want lol. Honest question.

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[–] 3 points 1 year ago (29 children)

I'm LDS some people might call us Mormon.

The short of it is I asked God and I felt his presence. Not like any earthly feeling, more like the burning the bible / new testament describes.

But even without any of that I'd still have believed / known. I just, always have if that makes sense? I might've gone a different direction in my beliefs but I'd still have known he's there.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (25 children)

    I have always wanted to ask someone who has this opinion how they confront the knowledge that people from every religion have felt the same thing? Some people have felt this way multiple times about mutually exclusive faiths.

    That's one of the largest things that led me to be an agnostic atheist (meaning I don't claim to have knowledge, and I hold no belief in a god; I don't disbelieve, it's the ascence of belief). I was raised non-denomination Christian, but I had a good Buddhist friend in high school. It made me curious about other faiths, and they're almost all mutually exclusive, yet every one has people certain they're correct. What are the odds I was born to a family that believed the correct one?

    I'm not self-centered enough to believe I'm special and all the other people are just unlucky, so the result is that it's most likely I wasn't born lucky, and neither was anyone else. So many religions have faded out of existence, so the odds are if any are correct they don't exist anymore. Why would I think I happen to find the right one?

    I know this is unlikely, but I'd be interested to hear an actual opinion about how that feels, not hearing about what you're supposed to believe (which I've heard before). I think it's interesting to know if it makes others feel the same way I once did or not.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (16 children)

    This is why a "feeling" should not be the reason you convert to a religion. You should be skeptical of Christians that argue their conversion on feelings alone. I certainly had feelings that I attribute to the Holy Spirit when I was an inquiring Christian but I frankly tried to ignore or diminish them to stay sober minded. Relying entirely on emotionalism or charism is historically discouraged as you could just as easily be swayed by demonic forces (e.g. prelest). It's one of many critiques of charismatic Protestantism and the LDS church.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (15 children)

    Everyone on earth that has adopted or converted to any religion has done so with a feeling as their reason. Nobody has ever converted due to cold hard facts or some research on the afterlife. Proof is unexisting by definition of faith.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (14 children)

    Everyone on earth that has adopted or converted to any religion has done so with a feeling as their reason.

    Assertion

    Nobody has ever converted due to cold hard facts or some research on the afterlife.

    Applying material requirements to the metaphysical and transcendental

    Proof is unexisting by definition of faith

    Transcendental Argument for God makes an affirmative pre-suppositional argument for God.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (13 children)

    I.. Yes? That's a correct interpretation, but you denied an answer to me. Or perhaps I misunderstood your position, that nobody should ever convert or consider any religion?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (12 children)

    I'm saying that your assertion isn't justified (e.g. it's just a subjective opinion). That you can't expect to apply the scientific method to something that transcends the material world and that there are indeed logical arguments for why someone should believe in God as opposed to not believing in God.

    I'm an Orthodox Christian.

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  • [–] 3 points 1 year ago (11 children)

    I don't think you're correct with your argument. Why would someone choose any particular religion? That's the argument. There is no logical argument for that. There are arguments for choose one in general, although logically very flawed. Still, there's no logical argument I'm aware of to choose a specific one.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (10 children)

    There is argumentation beyond the transcendental argument to believe, for example, the Christian God. It has to do with prophesy, metaphysics, theology etc

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (9 children)

    So... Feelings. I would really like to explore this rationale in your mind. Nobody should convert or join any religion on feelings. Yet, prophecy, metaphysics, theology.. So the edge of scientific reasoning but just slightly outside? Or because their father and mother practice it?

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (8 children)

    To prove you have any good faith in your "critique". State my argument back to me.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    A feeling should not be the reason you convert to any religion

    My refute: it is always feelings, the alternative is science

    you are wrong

    Can you explain?

    you are wrong to even ask

    Then the other person stated how there is no logical argument, that you have to use "feelings" (explaining again the same refutal)

    you can't expect to use science to explain

    What we refer to then is feelings?

    state my argument back at me to prove your faith, peasant

    This is this discussion so far from my viewpoint. To add to that, I have to say also that it is clearly triggering for you and difficult to discuss. I don't mind but take a breather whenever. It makes for a better quality enlightenment.

    ( Small aside: The supposition that we don't use science in matters of theology and metaphysics is very important to examine. What do we use? )

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (6 children)

    state my argument back at me to prove your faith, peasant

    Ironically you tried to push this back in my face as if I'm some pedant when it's the most pragmatic way to make sure we aren't talking past one another. If you just said "I have no idea" it would have been a better response.

    clearly triggering for you and difficult to discuss

    I've had some great discussions in this thread and everyone is better for it. You haven't bothered to even understand what I'm arguing though so this exchange is a waste of time.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (5 children)

    Classic run away tactic. Not even one response just more personal attacks. Okay thanks for trying! It was pretty unpleasant to talk to you.

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (4 children)

    I never personally attacked you.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    You don't really understand what personal attacks means, do you?

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  • [–] 0 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    I know what asserting without evidence means.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Yeah, because that's what all religious practicioners engage in at every point of their study. I just haven't ever heard someone whine at others for doing so without evidence, since from our adolescence we learn that people don't come back from or report from any afterlife making every single belief about it a guess, aka belief. I don't know what you are smoking to hold these in your head simultaneously but it seems intensely frustrating honestly.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (7 children)

    So, for the sake of this post isn't "I'm trying to convert you to my religion" I'm going to try and summarize our points of belief while more or less answering your question, and I'm not doing it out of a debate, but merely to answer you :)

    It's not really "we think we're lucky or better than anyone else" hell we actually believe that God is a God of fairness that doesn't value one person over another. Ie. "We are all his children and he loves us equally" is a core belief we hold. And as apart of that belief, we firmly hold it true that God will ensure that all his children who lived or died without hearing his gospel will have the opportunity too. That's point 1

    Point 2. Yes you can most certainly have spiritual experiences outside of the LDS faith or any faith for that matter. We tend to refer to that as "The light of Christ" but for a summarized explanation. We basically summarize that as, a testimony of truth wherever it may be found God will bare witness of it.

    And I also tend to lean towards a lot of Buddhist tenants myself btw. The concept of a state of being called Nirvana, that life is suffering (Though I know that's not exactly what he said) and a few other ideas they hold I agree with.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (6 children)

    It's not really "we think we're lucky or better than anyone else" hell we actually believe that God is a God of fairness that doesn't value one person over another. Ie. "We are all his children and he loves us equally" is a core belief we hold. And as apart of that belief, we firmly hold it true that God will ensure that all his children who lived or died without hearing his gospel will have the opportunity too.

    I'm going to question this a bit if you don't mind. Doesn't the LDS church teach that there are different "degrees of glory" and only the followers of the church's faith can reach the celestial kingdom? Yes, there's exception for those who haven't heard, but those who have and didn't follow the teachings are left out, even though there doesn't seem to be anything different about proofs of faith provided by followers of the LDS or any other religion. They seem to be the same veracity as followers of any other religion.

    And I also tend to lean towards a lot of Buddhist tenants myself btw. The concept of a state of being called Nirvana, that life is suffering (Though I know that's not exactly what he said) and a few other ideas they hold I agree with.

    Yeah, I think it's great to learn about other religions so we can take pieces of them that help us. Even if I don't believe any are any more likely to be true than the others, there's "truths" in all of them that apply whether you follow the faith or not.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    Also, thanks for the excellent questions! I love having friendly discussions with other people who believe differently. It really opens up my perspective. Hell, I served an LDS mission in Seattle Washington. If there's one thing I cherish, it's my conversations with those of other faiths and learning more about their perspectives.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

    So, A LOT of LDS and even other faiths make this mistake about our beliefs.

    Yes, we do believe in "Kingdoms of Glory" just as we believe in God having a law, commandments, etc. That being said, the LDS faith is at its core, quite different from other faiths in that we don't believe in your classical "Hell fire and damnation"

    Just to clarify this for any other Christian denominations, aside from our other teaching's where a lot of this comes from is this:

    John 14:2:

    In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

    1st Corinthians 41:

    There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    With that all being said. The biggest misconception and frankly appalling misunderstanding anyone makes in this, is that one person is valued less than another.

    Our firm faith is that, by living the precepts of God you can make it to the celestial kingdom, IE. The highest degree of glory, but that that's only provided through the Atonement of Jesus Christ ie. It's not our works that "buy our way into heaven" it's entirely through Christ and his Atonement.

    That is paramount.

    Second. We don't believe God has a "cool kids list" or a list of rules you had to follow, and if you didn't. Lol sucks to be you.

    We believe that God judges based on the person and their intentions, not solely by their actions. IE. It's not black and white. Otherwise, how could the Atonement claim to be all-encompassing?

    Kingdoms of Glory then becomes a choice we can make to get to. Like in my other comment. Some people will prefer pepperoni, some supreme, some pineapple.

    But all will be happy and in a heavenly state regardless. And no one person is left out of receiving the happoness they prefer.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

    With that all being said. The biggest misconception and frankly appalling misunderstanding anyone makes in this, is that one person is valued less than another.

    Aren't they though, by definition?

    Value: An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return.

    So if some people get more in return (what they get in the afterlife for accepting The Lord), they're valued higher. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I think what you mean is you don't think some people are, in essence, better. Just the degrees of glory mean some are valued more though, and that's not going into the husband/wife aspect.

    Kingdom's of Glory then becomes a choice we can make to get to. Like in my other comment. Some people will prefer pepperoni, some supreme, some pineapple.

    Yes, it's a choice, but some people get nicer outcomes based on their choice, and that choice is not made any more obviously correct than the choice of any other religion.

    If God is good, why would he make us make this choice and make it just a guessing game? I know the answer you're likely to give is that it isn't, and if we pray the answer will be made clear, but people believe with extreme faith (often more than most in the LDS have) that they're the ones who believe the truth, and they're certain that they've felt the presence of God(s) and they told them to follow this or that faith.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    It's not really a guessing game, it's a there's his gospel, we follow his gospel and we're rewarded, which he will ensure everyone has an opportunity to, or they can choose otherwise and receive the level of reward they so desire. No one's going to force somebody to live in a specific way; That's against the point.

    And God is good because he gives us a choice. Choice means we can become our own individuals, make our own mistakes, learn, and grow. Which to us is the fundamental answer to the purpose of this life. (Buddhism "Life is Suffering") Otherwise, what's the point of it all? We'd be hollow machines, always living in a good but un-understanding state of being with no opportunities to grow and move forward.

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    It's not really a guessing game, it's a there's his gospel, we follow his gospel and we're rewarded, which he will ensure everyone has an opportunity to, or they can choose otherwise and receive the level of reward they so desire. No one's going to force somebody to live in a specific way; That's against the point.

    It's my understanding that if we know of it in this world and deny it then that's the choice we make, correct? If so, and if all other religions claim the same veracity with the same level of proof/evidence, what makes it different than a guessing game?

    And God is good because he gives us a choice. Choice means we can become our own individuals, make our own mistakes, learn, and grow. Which to us is the fundamental answer to the purpose of this life. (Buddhism "Life is Suffering") Otherwise, what's the point of it all? We'd be hollow machines, always living in a good but un-understanding state of being with no opportunities to grow and move forward.

    I'm currently having a discussion with someone else in this thread about this basically. Yes we're given freedom to choose, but God created the world exactly how he wanted, with the knowledge of everything that would result, with the power to make literally anything happen, right? If he wanted to he could have created a world where we all freely choose the right thing, even when given the ability to choose the wrong thing. Not machines programmed to choose the right thing, just an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent designer who sets things up to fall into place perfectly.

    The example I just used in that other comment is like setting up dominos. You don't decide the physics of how they'll fall, you just intelligently set them up so they fall the way you want. If you're omnipotent and omniscient then this is trivial for you, and you must be able to do this for people's choices such that they just always choose the right thing. If you're benevolent then this is what you want. You still make just as many choices, but they just all happen to be good.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    It's my understanding that if we know of it in this world and deny it then that's the choice we make, correct? If so, and if all other religions claim the same veracity with the same level of proof/evidence, what makes it different than a guessing game?

    It's the assumption / pretense that there's a single right. And that, you can ask of God to find out. It's also under the assumption that again God is a God of mercy and won't judge you for what you didn't know. Cause if he's a perfect being, there must also be a perfect fairness in all he does as well.

    Though it's a very genuine concern / question to have for sure!

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago (2 children)

    Does it feel correct that there are levels of heaven, better and worse heavens on other planets? I always felt this is disturbing to me, but it makes sense what you are saying

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  • [–] 1 point 1 year ago (1 child)

    Not so much "levels of heaven" in that anyone's values lesser than others. It's that God understands his children, he understands we're all different. I like a plain pepperoni pizza. Some people like supreme pizza, some people God forbid like pineapple on their pizza.

    He's not going to force one person or another into this route definition of "heaven" because supreme pizza may not be heaven, nor plain pepperoni or pineapple.

    Sorry if that analogy doesn't make sense.

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  • [–] 2 points 1 year ago

    No, no it definitely makes sense and btw pineapple on pizza is heavenly (pun intended) but I have always thought and heard from my Mormon friends that they can "work harder" on faith and then come closer to God in the afterlife as a "reward" (this is just me paraphrasing violently) and I found that kind of offensive, as I feel most religions and absolutely Christianity as a whole make a big deal of being equal children of God. Like if you wanted to sit next to Jesus you better work your ass off in your life. It is probably wrong, I understand, but even the idea of a hierarchy in a spiritual setting is for me incredibly offensive

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