highball comments on HP hasn't made an OMEN gaming handheld because of Windows, but they are open to making a SteamOS-powered handheld

[–] highball@lemmy.world 3 points 2 years ago* (11 children)

there’s a good chance laptop and desktop hardware support improves even further just because they reuse parts across devices.

100% agree.

This is how Linux has caught-up-ish with respect to hardware in the first place. The BSOD from all the crappy drivers in Windows forced MSFT to create WHQL. Then MSFT charged for certification. Then OEMs started licensing IP that already had the certification instead of writing their own drivers for less well know IP. Someone writes a Linux driver for a certain IP and now a ton of systems are further supported.

These companies are definitely going to reuse IP across all their devices. Companies selling IP will want to sell their IP in as many markets as possible. They are going to write the Linux driver and say, "put this in your handheld."

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[–] rah@feddit.uk 2 points 2 years ago* (10 children)

They are going to write the Linux driver and say, "put this in your handheld."

That would be terrible. They shouldn't be giving their customers a driver, they should be sending their driver to mainline and telling their customers "Use any version of Linux after 6.<whenever their driver was committed>".

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[–] highball@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (9 children)

I should clarify. I'm speaking from the perspective of the IP owner who writes the driver and manufacturer who puts together all the components. And I'm sure the drivers would get mainlined. That's what Intel does now. They inbox their Windows driver with MSFT and mainline their Linux driver with the Kernel.

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[–] rah@feddit.uk 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (8 children)

I'm speaking from the perspective of the IP owner who writes the driver and manufacturer who puts together all the components.

As am I.

And I'm sure the drivers would get mainlined.

That's not the norm.

Intel

Intel is huge and employs shit loads of Linux developers. Most vendors, who will be much smaller, don't. For example, Realtek, who stick a crappily written driver in a tarball on their download page and call it a day. Or any of the hundreds of silicon vendors (such as NXP, Nvidia, Rockchip, Allwinner, Realtek again, Qualcomm, etc., etc.) with "BSP"s who give their customers a 500GB package containing, among lots of proprietary userland shit, some butchered horror show based on Linux 3.3 with no git history.

I can't imagine why you would expect drivers to be mainlined by a vendor.

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[–] highball@lemmy.world 2 points 2 years ago (7 children)

I can’t imagine why you would expect drivers to be mainlined by a vendor.

Because I was a Windows kernel developer for Intel. It was standard practice for us to give our reference drivers to the OEMs to deploy with their devices, while we worked with Microsoft to inbox the reference drivers. This was part of the value of the Intel IP.

That’s not the norm.

It is the Norm for PCs. And we are talking about, "Laptop manufacturers making handhelds, leading to cost cutting from a resource perspective." We aren't talking about ARM vendors making 1 off devices.

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[–] rah@feddit.uk 0 points 1 year ago (6 children)

I was a Windows kernel developer

LOL your experience in Windows driver land is in no way transferrable to Linux driver land.

It is the Norm for PCs

You mean for PCs running Windows. Which is not what we're talking about.

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[–] highball@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (5 children)

LOL your experience in Windows driver land is in no way transferrable to Linux driver land.

My experience at Intel with drivers is directly transferable. Intel sells the whole product. That's why an OEM would choose Intel IP. It's a core part of the sales strategy at Intel, not Just PC, Servers too (even Linux servers). Especially to the smaller OEMs who don't have huge engineering teams. Name a server technology or Server component that didn't get mainlined or inbox'd of Intel's? Again, core to the sales strategy.

You mean for PCs running Windows.

Yes.

Which is not what we’re talking about.

Yes we are, "At the very least, the big laptop manufacturers". Lenovo, Asus, and MSI are PC OEMs that make Windows PCs. Laptops, Desktop, Workstations, and now Handheld PCs. Right now PC is dominated by Windows. If the SteamOS version of the Lenovo handhelds are a clear winner, other Windows PC OEMs will follow. They, the big laptop manufacturers, will bring their expectations with them. Just as AMD mainlined into Linux the drivers they did for their components in the Steam Deck, Intel will too. And that brings us back to, "the big laptop manufacturers making Linux handhelds means just from a cost cutting and resource perspective, there’s a good chance laptop and desktop hardware support improves even further just because they reuse parts across devices." If, the big laptop manufacturers, want the SteamOS name and branding, they will have to mainline and that means selecting IP that has or will have mainline drivers. Valve will not want to go the Google route and maintain a separate Linux Kernel.

Windows PC manufacturers, not 1 off ARM vendors.

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[–] rah@feddit.uk 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

My experience at Intel with drivers is directly transferable.

LOL

Intel

The industry is more than just Intel and Intel are an outlier with respect to Linux kernel development.

they will have to mainline

They will not.

Valve will not want to go the Google route and maintain a separate Linux Kernel.

They already do:

https://gitlab.com/evlaV/linux-integration

https://gitlab.com/evlaV/linux-integration/activity

No offence mate but you're talking bollocks. You clearly don't know anything about Linux development.

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[–] highball@lemmy.world 1 point 1 year ago (3 children)

LOL

Nice, you got nothing.

The industry is more than just Intel and Intel are an outlier with respect to Linux kernel development.

Intel is not an outlier with respect to PCs. Which we are talking about. Specifically, "the big laptop manufacturers", who are PC manufacturers. These are the manufacturers who are making the overwhelming majority of these Handhelds. Again, not some 1 off ARM vendor.

They already do: https://gitlab.com/evlaV/linux-integration https://gitlab.com/evlaV/linux-integration/activity

Again, you got nothing. All you have left is disingenuous links. Valve works from a fork, like everybody else. You know good and well, Google is doing something very different with their Android Kernel. https://web.git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/log/?qt=grep&q=Valve Valve, and all their contractors work to mainline their additions/changes to Valves fork. I can build a recent Linux kernel from the mainline and use it to boot my Steam Deck.

I'm shocked that this is news for you but, it's not just Intel who works off their own forks of the different Windows kernels. We get our drivers certified with WHQL and then hand them off to the OEMs who use our IP for release with their devices. In parallel work is done with Microsoft engineers to inbox the drivers. Valve is doing nothing different. Valve does the exact same thing with their fork of Linux. There is no reason to expect anything different out of Valve, Intel, or any other company or individual.

No offence mate but you’re talking bollocks. You clearly don’t know anything about Linux development.

Scuttle the argument how you like. You have nothing so it's to be expected. We are clearly talking about OP's claim, which is for the PC industry. Not Linux development. "the big laptop manufacturers", remember? You can go around and talk about all the "1 off ARM vendors" out there and how poor their practices are and how little they offer; knock yourself out. OP specifically said, "the big laptop manufacturers". I outline why he is correct in his claim from my direct industry experience. These laptop manufacturers are going to expect the same white glove treatment working with SteamOS as they do for Windows. The exact same treatment AMD did for Valve.

Sounds like you have zero experience with the PC industry and zero experience with even one of "the big laptop manufacturers".

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[–] rah@feddit.uk 1 point 1 year ago (2 children)

you got nothing

LOL

We are clearly talking about OP’s claim, which is for the PC industry. Not Linux development.

No. I responded to your statement that 'They are going to write the Linux driver and say, “put this in your handheld.”' So we're talking only about Linux development.

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[–] highball@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago (1 child)

LOL

Still nothing.

No. I responded to your statement that ‘They are going to write the Linux driver and say, “put this in your handheld.”’ So we’re talking only about Linux development.

Because the driver is for Linux? What a stretch. “the big laptop manufacturers” aren't going to suddenly drop their expectations just because of "Linux Development". How laughable. You have nothing. If you really believe that, you better send AMD an email, let them know how Linux development "actually" works. AMD is doing too much and needs to stop helping Valve, Asus, and Lenovo. Clearly the PC(Windows) heavy weights are setting the bar too high for all these "1 off ARM" device vendors.

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[–] rah@feddit.uk 1 point 1 year ago

“the big laptop manufacturers” aren't going to suddenly drop their expectations just because of "Linux Development"

I haven't claimed they would.

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