Lefty Memes
An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
Rules
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
- Absolutely no posts or comments meant to relativize(/apologize for), advocate, promote or defend:
- Racism
- Sexism
- Queerphobia
- Ableism
- Classism
- Rape or assault
- Genocide/ethnic cleansing or (mass) deportations
- Fascism
- (National) chauvinism
- Orientalism
- Colonialism or Imperialism (and their neo- counterparts)
- Zionism
- Religious fundamentalism of any kind
view the rest of the comments
Since it took a while for you to respond to me long after anyone would be looking, it seems like you're interested in a legitimate conversation with me concerning my leftist values. It looks like you've been thinking about this a lot. I'm willing to engage with you in good faith and explain my personal thinking.
One thing that is very important to have a productive conversation is to agree on the definition of terms. I wasn't being dismissive when I was offering sources from the Encyclopedia Britannica. One thing that makes many conversations completely impossible is different understandings of the same words, causing the parties involved to be arguing completely different points often without realizing. The reason I bring this up is specifically in regards to "Private Property," which is a bit more nuanced than encompassing all individual items "owned" by any given individual. There are no serious leftists advocating for confiscating handtools, computers, furniture, or other such pieces of individual property from the entire population and redistributing them equally. Although the definition can be construed this way, no one is arguing for that. For a better understanding of what is meant my "Private Proptery" in a more common politcal context, below is quoted Marx's view in Capital:
Edit: If you're willing to engage in good faith and clarify what we mean by the words we use, I would be more than happy to address your points and answer your questions.
I totally agree with you on agreeing on definitions and terms. I also have had the experience of arguing at cross purposes because of a difference in accepted terminology. (ex. fascism, capitalism, corporatism, etc). As I'm reading through your response several terms and items jump out at me.
"There are no serious leftists advocating for confiscating handtools, computers, furniture, or other such pieces of individual property from the entire population and redistributing them equally. Although the definition can be construed this way, no one is arguing for that. "
I would have to contest this point. Does it matter if you demand that a man turn over a loaf of bread if you put in place food rationing or tax the price of that loaf of bread? Does it matter if a man has a his physical assets left alone if his liquid assets are limited or taken from him? I find it ironic that the left labels hiring someone as exploitation but denies that taxation is extortion. The same with denouncing economic monopolies but promoting government which is a monopoly on violence by definition. If power is to be distributed then everyone should be responsible for their own self defense and monopolies on violence should be dissolved with the same vigilance as economic monopolies. Where is the antitrust agency against governments?
"Private property, as the antithesis to social, collective property, exists only where the means of labour and the external conditions of labour belong to private individuals. "
What? Labor = private individuals. He who creates owns. He who labors trades. This is why I find Marxism confusing. You don't get capital without mixing your labor with resources. You can't trade for some other product without gaining some kind of capital. Laborers = capitalists. Capitalists are not some upper class rich folks. If you plant seeds, till the ground and reap a harvest then that harvest you yield is your capital. if you sell that food you are a capitalist even if you are only making enough to keep your home running and to plant next years crop. Trade = capitalism. This whole paragraph makes NO sense! I'm just going to say that up front.
"From that moment new forces and new passions spring up in the bosom of society; but the old social organisation fetters them and keeps them down. It must be annihilated; it is annihilated. Its annihilation, the transformation of the individualised and scattered means of production into socially concentrated ones, of the pigmy property of the many into the huge property of the few, the expropriation of the great mass of the people from the soil, from the means of subsistence, and from the means of labour, this fearful and painful expropriation of the mass of the people forms the prelude to the history of capital…"
First of all centralization of wealth didn't just happen organically. Corporate charters are a product of the state. So is colonization. Seriously where would Big Pharma or Big Media be without patants and copyright? Where would modern economics be without limited liability? What if we stopped backing corporations up with government protectionism? "That guy copied my drug formula!" "That guy won't stop making free copies of my music album!" "That business copied my logo!" " Help I'm being sued for making a dangerous product and useless warning labels!" Don't get me started on private banks, the federal reserve or the IMF etc, all of which are ALSO businesses backed by government. Governments didn't just magically get money and land either. They literally stole it from other people for the most part through force of arms. So when you take monopolies on violence out of the picture and government protectionism out of the picture what are you left with? Self owned businesses backed by labor and trade, ie what Marx would call "laborers". Granted there can be centralizations of wealth but this can be countered by people just copying, innovating and undercutting others.
"Self-earned private property, that is based, so to say, on the fusing together of the isolated, independent labouring individual with the conditions of his labour, is supplanted by capitalistic private property, which rests on exploitation of the nominally free labour of others, i.e., on wage labour…"
Yeah this is another what? How is hiring and PAYING THEM free labor? You're out the cost of their pay cheque! They are literally trading their time and effort for money. How is that free labor either way? Moreover how is that exploitative? One could argue that one CAN exploit others by underpaying them but that's not what is being discussed here from what I understand. This seems to be a general statement about employment. So yeah, what?!?! Definitely a difference in terminology there.
"The capitalist mode of appropriation, the result of the capitalist mode of production, produces capitalist private property. This is the first negation of individual private property, as founded on the labour of the proprietor. "
As explained before there is no "capitalist" vs "individual" private property. The individual IS a capitalist. Ergo there is just "private property." Much of this seems to be discussing class divisions but trying to create a difference in terms between those who trade in goods and services and those who produce those goods and services. To use an example. A farmer grows a crop. He then sells that crop to a traveling merchant caravan. The caravan then transports those food stuffs to a big town market where they are resold by grocers in the marketplace. When does one start being an elite? Is it the caravan owner? The marketplace vendors? Who?
"But capitalist production begets, with the inexorability of a law of Nature, its own negation. It is the negation of negation. This does not re-establish private property for the producer, but gives him individual property based on the acquisition of the capitalist era: i.e., on cooperation and the possession in common of the land and of the means of production. (Chapter 32)"
You're going to have to explain that because that makes zero sense. None. Zip.
I don't think most reasonable people need to be compelled to support their community, and as I mentioned above scrutiny is necessary. However, I think plutocrats are unreasonable because they were never made to grow beyond the stage most of us do when we learn not everything belongs to us. They should be compelled to first be treated for their maladaptive development and then to join us in society when they understand why they should.
There's a balance. We are individuals and also members of the human race making us social by nature. I think all individual freedoms should be protected to the extent that they don't cause harm to others. I don't consider offending personal sensibilities to be a harm, either. It makes sense to reasonable people to be part of a community and I personally believe tolerance is a community sustaining value. In a healthy society, there shouldn't be a need for compulsion. There are steps to be taken from an unhealthy society to make it healthy and those steps should be carefully considered, but are necessary to prevent degradation. Doing something and doing nothing are both risks.
Violence from whom? So much of liberal capitalism is completely constructed and depends entirely on participation of members who have faith in that system. A massive general strike could bring the entire system down very quickly, and I would bet that in this case every liberal government in the world would immediately act to compel the labor which isn't being offered by any means necessary. Trump sure as hell would. If we stopped doing this and started doing something else, it could be done peacefully but the established order would not peacefully allow that to happen.
Anarchists like to say, "Anarchism doesn't mean no rules, it means no rulers." If a village is living in freedom, would they respect the freedom of one villager to start burning down houses, even without a leader to tell them whether it's allowed? Of course not. People generally aren't that stupid. A community can manage resources and a network of communities could theoretically manage resources on a larger scale. I can't tell you exactly what the final answer would be, but it doesn't sound impossible to me for people to govern themselves democratically in the absence of kings or executives.
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would consider China a communist country if they're arguing in good faith. Their government is an interesting experiment with many socialist oriented accomplishments such as minimum standards of living, full employment, and relative stability contrasting our boom bust cycles. That being said having a non-democratic government run by the upper class, especially when the government of exclusively upper class people determine who becomes upper class, is far from my ideal. Having a government as powerful as theirs does appear to keep Capitalism in check better than we can, though. I've heard serious arguments that it's a decent transitional government to a communist government, but honestly it looks like the establishment over there like it how it is and would rather grow their power and wealth than transition to communism. Rather than an authoritarian government keeping capitalism in check, I would rather a democratic government with universal ownership and investment by the whole people. No despots publicly or privately is what I personally prefer.
This was much longer than I expected. I'll reply to your next post some time soon.
I agree. Which is yet another reason I don't think taxation is ethical or necessary to create social safety nets.
First of all this is one of those examples of the utilization of violence I was talking about. Oh there is x group of people that are not contributing for y reason so let's use force to make them do it. It doesn't matter if they're maladaptive greedy assholes! The point is you're making an excuse to initialize violence against someone who is otherwise engaging in voluntary consensual action. Their only crime is that they aren't doing what you want them to do. Furthermore you can't have a plutocrat without government and a monopoly on violence in the first place so your logic here is rather circular. Let's get rid of rule by money by creating a monopoly on violence which can then be subverted by the highest bidder. But without a monopoly on violence then there is nothing to bid on and/or there is greater competition.
Government is by definition a monopoly on violence. What happens when you DON'T have faith in the system? Can you unsubscribe from democracy? Can you retract your vote? Can you withdraw consent? Can you unsubscribe from funding government services by not paying taxes? Wait no because if you don't pay taxes you're locked up and violence is initiated against you! By what right did the U.S. acquire all that land from the various First Nations? It either committed genocide or signed very one sided shady deals that it barely honors to this day. How did Britain acquire Ireland, Scotland and Whales and become the UK? Conquest straight up. Force of arms. Democracy is a new thing. And when Scotland wanted to run a democratic referendum for its independence England blocked it. So much for democracy. You think it would be any different in America? Your so called democratic system is just as corrupt what with the Electoral College. But this is beside the point. Democracy is a method to determine what to do with a monopoly on violence. In a voluntary society people are free to just leave. Leave the organization, forum, sports team, whatever. So as long as there is a centralization of all the guns and no one can opt out or refuse to pay taxes and support the system then yeah regardless of whether it's a royal edict or a democratic decision any law passed is an assertion of violence, veiled or not.
Look say you have 5 friends. If they all agree on a rule then yes arguably that's a law between them. But if someone disagrees then that person should still have the choice to leave the group and withdraw their support. It's NOT a law unless they agree. If the four remaining friends chain up the fifth and make him stay and compell obedience that's violence and unethical.
Because their 1 party system is called the China Communist Party? And yes their system is trending towards authoritarianism but then the same happened in Russia/U.S.S.R. when communism was attempted there. Honestly I don't think communism can be a thing so long as human governance is used to moderate it. Maybe if you tried creating a DAO and an AI to objectively redistribute funds so there wouldn't be any ego involved it might work but so long as there are humans managing things there is always going to be a class dynamic and power-tripping, and therefore communism will fail. Best to get rid of government and distribute things from the get go. Less central planning more mesh networking etc. Marx didn't have the internet or computer code.