this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2024
487 points (97.3% liked)
Privacy
31847 readers
128 users here now
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
Some Rules
- Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn't great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
- Don't promote proprietary software
- Try to keep things on topic
- If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
- Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
- Be nice :)
Related communities
Chat rooms
-
[Matrix/Element]Dead
much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
You can also self-host bitwarden.
This still requires a server setup, focused entirely on passwords. Why do that?
Why not just use KeePass or KeePassXC, and use Syncthing for this and general files, or KeePassXC's keeshare sync to sync the files without any hosting, server, or other services.
Extremely simplified tldr: both of these are like a authenticated private bittorrent, where the "tracker" only helps you find yourself on another devices, no data is ever sent outside of your authenticaed devices, and all transmissions are encrypted as well.
Few reasons, with the most important being convenience. Syncthing is going to see just a binary blob as the password storage is encrypted. This means it is impossible for syncthing to do proper synchronization of items inside the vault. Generally this is not a problem, but it is if you happen to edit the vault on multiple devices and somehow syncthing didn't sync yet the changes (this is quite common for me on android, where syncthing would drain the battery quite quickly if it's always actively working). For bitwarden on the other hand the sync happens within the context of the application, so you can have easy n-way merge of changes because its change is part of a change set with time etc.
Besides that, the moment you use syncthing from a threat model point of view, you are essentially in the same situation: you have a server (in case of syncthing - servers) that sees your encrypted password data. That's exactly what bitwarden clients do, as the server only has access to encrypted data, the clients do the heavy lifting. If the bitwarden server is too much of a risk, then you should worry also of the (random, public, owned by anybody) servers for syncthing that see your traffic.
Keeshare from my understanding does use hosting, it uses cloud storage as a cloud backend for stateful data (Gdrive, Dropbox etc.), so it's not very different. The only difference would be if you use your private storage (say, Synology Drive), but then you could use the same device to run the bit/vaultwarden server, so that's the same once again.
The thing is, from a higher level point of view the security model can only be one of a handful of cases:
The more you go down in the list, the more you get convenience but you introduce a bit of risk. Tl;Dr keepass with keyshare/syncthing has the same risks (or more) than a Bitwarden setup with bitwarden server.
In addition to all the above, bitwarden UX is I would say more developed, it has a better browser plugin, nice additional tools and other convenience features that are nice bonuses. It also allows me to have all my family using a password manager (including my tech illiterate mom), without them having to figure out anything, with the ability to share items, perform emergency accesses etc.
Edit: I can't imagine this comment to be deemed off topic, so if someone downvoted simply to express disagreement, please feel free to correct or dispute what I wrote, as it would certainly make for an interesting conversation! Cheers
There's often the 'security vs. convenience' tradeoff, but for most people you have both sides with Bitwarden over KeePass.
Bitwarden is undoubtedly more convenient. If you can create an account, you can use it. I have a family account, and have both of my parents using it. The love it now, but given the friction to get them there in the first place, it would impossible to get them on KeePass. Especially because they wanted their passwords on all devices.
Regardless of using Vaultwarden or KeePass, you need to have quite a bit of expertise to self host. And you are trusting your own ability to secure your attack surface. I'm sure many if not most in this thread can, but it would take me quite a while to convince myself I have. I would much rather trust security professionals.
Somewhat, although, potentially related. Have you seen Bitwarden's git repos? It is immaculately organized.
Consistent, clear naming convention. There is literally one called 'self-host'. If you put that much effort into keeping your code that useable/available/auditable etc. Oh yea. I'm going to trust you to handle security for me
This is one of the rare cases where I believe security through obscurity applies.
What is the most ripe attack target: the password hosting service with millions of user credentials, or literally some random IP address using syncthing that could be sending literally anything that you don't know is passwords or porn.
Companies like Bitwarden and 1Password and LastPass are doomed to have failures, just like any major corporation. They are too big with too much attack surface, and clearly advertise that they have stuff worth stealing.
Me? My KeePass vault is synced via Syncthing with no relay data, so it only ever exists on my phone and desktop, and is encrypted with what is today functionally unbreakable encryption. Today at least (RIP when quantum chips get good).
And my data is a blade of grass in a field. Sure there is a narrow chance someone snooping on my entire geographic area and stealing packets like the FBI could grab some packets in transmission. But they show nothing, and mean nothing. And the FBI has easier ways to get our data anyways.
Point is, I'd rather take my odds as a heavily encrypted file syncs between singular devices like a drop of water in the ocean, versus putting all my diamonds in Joe's Diamond Emporium and just hoping no one decides to steal MY diamonds when it (inevitably) gets robbed.