Leftist Infighting: A community dedicated to allowing leftists to vent their frustrations

What is this hexbear rule? We are becoming the strawman fascists are making of us Edit: furthermore I think this does not help federation at all, I think we should follow the same principle that is used in extradition: it must be illegal in both states in order for the person to be extradite, or it needs to be illegal on both platforms to be removed, but again, that might lead to problems if a community deems racist jokes, for example, not illegal so we can't do much about it, it's an headache. Edit 2: i think I could be misunderstood easily, Im not attacking the platform, just saying that that's a generally stupid rule.

A good refutation of the ‘KPD is to blame for the Third Reich’ myth is Sergio Bologna’s Nazism and the working class, which focuses more on class analysis (!!!) than blaming ‘the left’ or the Comintern or Moscow or specifically Joseph Stalin for almost everything that went wrong. (It’s also a big surprise coming from libcom.org—of all things—hilariously enough.) Anyway, our theory noob here claims that

the KPD […] rejected several offers from the SPD to enter coalition to stop the rise of Nazism

While there is some truth to this, when we actually examine the relations between the SPD and the KPD in context, as Nazism and the working class does, the reasons for this refusal were more complicated than how she presented them. She also claims that the

KPD and NSDAP also essentially collaborated during the late 1920s and early 1930s to undermine Weimar democracy both as a matter of street violence and using institutional means

By which she meant

in history books you too often find the thesis that the Nazis and Communists went side by side to fight against the institutions of Weimar, and you frequently find reference to the two episodes in which they found themselves in a united front against the Socialist Party: the public transport strike in Berlin in Autumn 1932, and the referendum against the Prussian government under Otto Braun; you almost never hear of the physical clashes which took place between proletarians organised by the KPD and the [Fascist] gangs.

What was wrong with this Prussian government (or ‘Weimar democracy’) under Braun? Sergio Bologna provides us with a clue:

Now, Prussia was governed not so much by the Social Democratic party as such, as by some of its more prestigious exponents. They had considerable power, and they were located on the extreme Right of the party.

The key man in Prussia, for many years prime minister of the Prussian government, was Otto Braun, a man of open and declared authoritarian tendencies, who saw the role of social democracy as being in maintaining law and order, in the untouchability of the state bureaucra[c]y, and in a corporative partnership between trade unions and big capital.

In the words of Theodor Eschenburg, the author of a fine book on the problem of “ungovernability” in the Weimar Republic, he was in favour of a “recallable dictatorship”. Otto Braun's principal collaborator was for many years Albert Grzesinski, who was Minister of the Interior in Prussia, and from 1930 was also head of police in Berlin.

We should not forget that during this period the Social Democrats had considerable powers in the area of law and order, because in 1928 one of their number, Carl Severing, was appointed Minister of the Interior of the Reich. The SPD took advantage of this to institute an extremely efficient reorganisation of the police, with the principal aim of setting up a special corps to prevent Bolshevik disturbances and uprisings.

Unfortunately they were not equally efficient and motivated in preventing and repressing [Fascist] gangsterism. The situation inevitably aggravated the historic fracture between Social Democrats and Communists that had already existed since the murders of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht — a fracture which experienced a particularly acute moment — a point of “no return” — in the events of Mayday 1929.

[…]

Mayday 1929 in Berlin fell in an atmosphere that was particularly tense, due partly to the onset of economic crisis and partly to the onset of a crisis of the political system.

The police chief in Berlin, a Social Democrat by name of Zorgiebel, had already banned all public demonstrations in Berlin in December 1928. In March 1929 he extended the ban to the whole of Prussia, and then renewed the ban specifically for Mayday 1929, asking the trade unions to abstain from public demonstrations and to organise only indoor meetings.

The Communists, however, decided to challenge the ban and to demonstrate in the streets. The Social Democratic trade unions and the SPD organised their Mayday events in theatres, association offices etc. The Communist slogan was: "We do not accept the ban. We shall demonstrate in the streets, and if the police try to attack we shall call a general strike for the next day." And so it was to be.

The police, as has been shown from research in police archives, mounted a deliberate attack, organised by special anti‐subversion units. There were violent clashes, which spread to include workers who were coming out of the indoor meetings of the Social Democratic trade unions. The Communist Party called a general strike for the following day, but despite pressure from many militants did not distribute weapons; nevertheless, in the quarters of Neukolln and Wedding the barricades went up and the police had to lay siege to the areas for three days before they were able to restore order.

The final balance was extremely heavy: thirty people dead, all of them demonstrators; 200 wounded; 1,200 people arrested, of whom 44 were kept in custody by the police. The Prussian Minister of the Interior seized this opportunity to ban the mass organisations of the Communist Party.

These events brought about an unhealable fracture between Communist militants, and the Social Democratic party and its organisations. Oral history research has shown that in the memory of proletarian militants (not only communists) this was a turning point, a “point of no return” in their remembrance of their total alienation from anything to do with the SPD.

Whereas the killings of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht might possibly have been attributed to the Freikorps and not purely to Noske's policies, the blame for the repression of Mayday 1929 in Berlin lay squarely at the door of Social Democratic ministers and functionaries. This trauma split the working class down the middle, right on the eve of the final clash with the [Fascist] militias.

(Emphasis added.)

With all of this in mind, it should not be hard at all to understand why the KPD would turn down the SPD’s late offers for a ‘coalition’ (probably under some very important terms and conditions that somebody neglected to mention, I suspect) against fascism. Given that the succdems were so lazy at suppressing fascism, I really doubt that a coalition would have made an enormous difference anyway.

As for why the Fascists wished to suppress German Social Democracy, hopefully it goes without saying that their reasons were very different from those of the Communists, which probably explains why their collaboration — if you’d call it that — was so sporadic and ultimately meaningless. It just goes to show that being right for the wrong reasons is hardly better than being wrong to begin with.

Hi wisconcom. I know you can read this message, so don't bother saying you haven't. For others who do not know about him, just know that he's a "Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist" (or Hoxhaist).

You keep going on this website, trying to infiltrate it in one way or another, defending yourself when you're being threatened. I have countless examples of your alts. One example is 'Sickomus', who wrote a 'critique' on my essay in Prolewiki. You defended yourself with another account as well, showing your clear cowardice: How about you going on RationalWiki and changing your username so that you can hide away from your edits on ProleWiki?

I just wanna ask some questions. Why do you do this? What do you hope to achieve by doing this? If you're doing to 'trash Tankies and Dengists', then why are you bothering to literally blend in with us to begin with?

Even RationalWiki editors (whom are liberals) know that you're obsessed. This is just laughable at this point.

If you're just doing this to combat 'revisionism' or some other bullshit, then why are you not at all concerned that you're literally on rationalwiki? A website, which literally claims that communism is a totalitarian ideology:

What problem does fighting revisionism have? Nothing by itself. But you care more about fighting revisionism more than fighting capitalism. Therefore you're helping US imperialism.

I would like to end off this message by stating this:

Good day.

cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/465610

As an artist, I think it is a net negative for us. Disregarding the copyright issue, I think it's also consolidating power into large corporations, going to kill learning fundamental skills (rip next generation of artists), and turn the profession into a low skill minimum wage job. Artists that spent years learning and perfecting their skills will be worth nothing and I think it's a pretty depressing future for us. Anways thoughts?

cross-posted from: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/452108

It was linked to be by a @Sickomus as a source of history regarding ProleWiki. As you might expect it is is full of his normal social imperialist talking points and such. Also he calls himself a "Marxist Leninist Stalinist" now instead of his previous Hoxhaist beliefs for some reason.

Okay, first of all, with the arguable exception of trolling, there is really no need to bother engaging with confirmed antisocialists (especially billionaires). It doesn’t matter how many sources you offer if they have no interest in checking one for more than ten seconds. You can’t force or compel them to be interested in learning; they have to hit rock‐bottom first, then—when they have little or nothing to lose and it almost seems like life couldn’t possibly get any worse—they’ll be more open to socialism. For now, you are better off doing something else.

Twoth, the response ‘Venezuela isn’t socialist’, while agreeable in principle, just isn’t a very productive or interesting response to offer. The accusation ‘socialism destroyed Venezuela’ is wrong not simply because the BRV is presocialist. It’s also wrong because it ignores why leftist politicians assumed power in the Venezuela in the first place, and it is wrong because it ignores the devastation that antisocialists—both from within and without—have been afflicting upon it for decades. The sanctions, guarimbas, the destruction of foodstuff, and so on—these should not be ignored, trivialized, or misjudged as ‘our responsibility’, and repeatedly doing either only encourages everybody to think of antisocialists as unaccountable for their atrocities.

Lastly (and call me an ultraleftist if you’d like), I’d argue that the definition of socialism that we should prefer is the negation of capitalism, that is to say, the abolition of generalized commodity production, the law of value, and capital. Seizing the means of production is good, of course, but is it enough to prevent exploitation? I’m afraid that the answer is no, not in a market economy.

I don’t want to sound too harsh on the SPGB, as they’re clearly well intentioned and probably nice people who belong to the same lower classes as we do, but replying critically to the upper classes is like trying to stop a Magach with a stone.

But Jesus fucking Christ the Genzedong/genhoxha discord is giving me huge reddit vibes. I understand that it has a more direct connection to the subreddit proper so it makes sense... but I don't even want to call some of these people comrades. Lemmygrad seems pretty good at formenting actual discussion even if I roll my eyes at the occasional back-handed comment. The discorders are seemingly ready to leap at each others' throats over the mildest criticisms, including going so far as to extrapolate the absolute worst conclusions they can imagine without allowing the other person a chance to elaborate. Also, for such a seemingly thorough vetting process, there definitely exists a clique of people with nothing but disdain for AES and definitely people with no idea what they're talking about making super inflammatory and frankly ridiculous statements/accusations.

It just feels so damn memey and I'm probably gonna leave. I see no worthwhile conversation happening on there, just 30-character twitter-style epic lib pwning with a refusal to engage in good faith with other communists. Like I said, not trying to shit on them or anything, just frustrated. If owning other communists online is your thing, more power to you I guess. Shit just makes me feel dirty sometimes and like I don't belong.

Idk if this kind of post isn't allowed as it's literally bad mouthing another community, I'm just pretty upset about the experience.

First, here’s the question that the author asked:

I was doing some research on the Spanish Civil War […] and I noticed in the timeline, that there was a nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and fascist Italy, which it said strengthened economic relations. Can anyone tell me about this? I have severe doubts that the USSR would expand trade with a fascist power.

A pact between the Soviet Union and Fascist Italy. That does sound troubling, and we should very well be concerned learning about that for the first time; it is a serious accusation. Of course, chances are that anticommunists are either distorting the issue or making it up entirely, as usual, but it’s safest to withhold judgement until we have more evidence. Now, how do you think that communism101 responded to this?

The liberal democracies of Europe made similar agreements with Hitler and Mussolini before the USSR did, and shot down Stalin's suggestions of an anti-fascist alliance in the 30s.

That’s… not the issue here. The original poster’s question was asking about the Italo–Soviet Pact and what we could tell them about it.

You trade with fascists every time you go to a store or pay your bills. What's your justification and why doesn't it apply to the Soviet people?

We frequently trade with anticommunists every time we got to a store or pay our bills. That is correct. But this topic is about the Italo–Soviet Pact, and a pact between states is a little bit different and more complicated than mundane transactions between individuals or a bill that we have to pay to businesses.

the USSR rightly determined that it was necessary to have some degree of economic relations with the capitalist world, why is it OK for them to sign peace treaties with Churchill and Roosevelt, both extreme genocidal racists, but unacceptable for them to do the same with Hitler and Mussolini?

Yes, fine, but the question was not asking if it was OK or not for Moscow to sign a pact with a Fascist government. The question was asking if we could tell the original poster anything more about the Italo–Soviet Pact. Here, this is exactly what the poster asked:

So I was doing some research on the Spanish Civil War on Wikipedia (already liberal source, I’m aware), and I noticed in the timeline, that there was a nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and fascist Italy, which it said strengthened economic relations. Can anyone tell me about this? I have severe doubts that the USSR would expand trade with a fascist power.

‘there was a nonaggression pact between the Soviet Union and fascist Italy, which it said strengthened economic relations. Can anyone tell me about this?’ That is the question. Unless maybe the asker is experiencing some sort of moral or existential crisis, telling us that liberals co‐operated with fascists is unlikely to be of much help. If we want to demonstrate that socialism in one country is preferable to a bourgeois régime (be it liberal or fascist), this certainly wouldn’t be of much help.

So, what can we tell the author about this pact? Well, you are in luck, because I have a very credible answer right here. Quoting Andrei Yu. Sidorov in History of International Relations and Russian Foreign Policy in the 20th Century, page 190:

‘The sanctions were initiated by Britain, though already in the run-up to the conflict, the cabinet of S. Baldwin had firmly decided that it would under no circumstances go to war with Italy over Ethiopia. France, for its part, informed Britain that it was against imposing oil sanctions. The League of Nations never dared ban the sale of oil to Italy, thus missing the chance to stop hostilities. "If the League had extended economic sanctions of oil, I would have had to withdraw from Abyssinia within a week", recognised Benito Mussolini later.

‘The Soviet Union took rather a cautious stance on the Ethiopian conflict. It did not have diplomatic relations with Ethiopia, while it had been quite closely co-operating with Italy. At the same time, Moscow could not ignore Mussolini's aggression. "However much we wish not to spoil relations with Italy, we cannot but go up against the imperialist war… it masterminds", wrote Maxim Litvinov to Stalin on October 5th, 1935.

‘The Soviet Union supported the sanctions against Italy but did not go any further, mindful of the position of France, its new ally. The USSR representative in the League of Nations was instructed not to be overzealous in the matter of sanctions and not initiate oil sanctions. In December 1935 the Politburo declined Ethiopia's request for assistance with arms and military specialists. All those moves were aimed at avoiding a serious deterioration in relations with Italy and preventing its rapprochement with Nazi Germany.’

(Emphasis added.)

You don’t need to distract from the issue, appeal to liberal memes like ‘HORSESHOE THEORY’ or ‘RED FASCISM’ or even express perfect satisfaction with this turn of events. You exercise scrutiny, you try to get to the bottom of the issue (specifically through Google Books, as the case may be), and you think for yourself by determining which explanation is the most reasonable.

That is how you answer the question.

An anti-communist interestingly made a claim, based on a wikipedia page

Stop caring and grow up. [+7]

…honestly, do I even need to explain why this advice is so terrible?

I have an idea, though: that should be /r/communism101’s official slogan. I mean, what’s stopping them? So many threads could be avoided if only they used this as their default response to everything. Imagine how much time it would save! No need to worry about the people or things that you love when all that you have is sheer, raw confidence! And if ya think about it, can you really say that you love something if you’re worrying about it? Why would you ever do that? Just assume that everything’s fine!

You know what, here’s an even better idea: why not lock up the subcommunity and set that as the entry page’s message? That would solve so many problems! Look, here’s a mock‐up:

This is a great idea! In fact, this idea is so great, that if /r/communism101 actually implemented it, I can guarantee that it would reduce their workload by a whooping 100%! Wow!

They're not a communist or even socialist. Simply a liberal who consumes communist memes, which is why they're spreading a Nazi's rhetoric here. This submission hasn't been removed yet so that others may witness what lies underneath subreddits such as /r/CommunismMemes, /r/ShitLiberalsSay, and /r/PoliticalCompassMemes, ie. they're not harmless.

For those wondering, here are all of the OP’s contributions to /r/PoliticalCompassMemes.

I know very little about this subject. I had someone I know tell me a few months ago that for socialism to be sustainable, and to solve the climate crisis, U.S.ians are going to need to give up almost all A/C. They pointed out the fact that Amerikans are crybabies and even most of Western Europe does not use A/C.

However, with Greece and Spain recently having caught on fire and with heat waves devouring the nations, as well as stories regarding people in hotter regions in the U.S. dying from heat stroke in their own homes because they couldn't afford their electricity bills, this read as sort of Maoist-lite, petty-bourgeois radicalism to me shifting blame on individuals when there are so many systemic industries contributing astronomically to the worsening climate. I was wondering, is A/C usage so detrimental as to necessitate its destruction? Should not the focus be on larger, more destructive industries and actually increasing the availability and affordability of A/C to hotter regions? Should scientific focus be moreso on creating a green A/C?

Like I said, almost no knowledge. Feel free to roast my ass (pun slightly intended).

Full disclosure: I'm training to be a psychologist (not psychiatrist)

I've been browsing here a lot since Genzedong got quarantined, as I had been expecting a full removal soon after. The general community here is so positive and funny, I found myself preferring it to the subreddit.

I decided to break from my lurking ways to comment on an unfortunate trend I've noticed: A few, maybe just one or two, users trying to bring legitimacy to anti-psychiatry rhetoric. These users are getting a great deal of attention for their posts, and they seem to me to be legit comrades, regularly posting in other subs as well. I think these users are genuine, and I don't intend to make this about them, nor am I about to speculate about their personal reasons for perpetuating these messages. I will say only this about them: There is a worrying tendency to fully dismiss the experiences and views of mental health professionals, saying that speaking to us is "like speaking to a wall," and encouraging other users to simply ignore our responses. I think I only need to describe this sort of behavior for the troublesome qualities of it to become self-evident. No more needs to be said on it.

Now, I want to speak first to the kernel of truth in the anti-psychiatry lie, because this is somewhat personal to me.

Following the death of my 24 year old brother in 2020, I had a very hard time maintaining my professional life for a little over a year. He was not only my closest friend, but also the only person with whom I could share my political thoughts openly, expecting that he might be feeling similar. Simply put, he was the only socialist I knew.

At my field placement at the time, I was often working with people who were hospitalized. The fact that capitalism contributes to mental illness was not a new concept to me, but seeing how many of our patients were homeless, and knowing that, sometimes, they were sent back to the streets after we had gotten them "back to baseline," was devastating for me. It was the sort of disruption that makes a person question the field they are in.

Cut-to October, 2021, I'm the only student in a classroom, explaining to 6 professors why my performance is slipping lately, and I find myself explaining that I feel impotent as a therapist, eventually yelling something rash to the effect of "If we actually wanted a psychologically-minded approach to helping these people, we'd be giving them houses!" Further, I was boiling in anger so slowly I almost didn't notice it, because I had no one - zero people - in this liberal-as-hell program to discuss my beliefs with. No one outside of it. Just no one. I was surrounded by people who loved to talk about "systems," but couldn't form a coherent thought about the economic system that undergirds all of the ills of these other systems.

It is true that therapy and psychiatry are often bandaids for people living in a sick society. It is true that many of the problems we seek to address are exacerbated or outright caused by living in a capitalist system. It is true that therapy addresses the suffering of individuals, when that suffering is often the result of communal discord.

It's deeply unhealthy to get stuck there though. I was for a time, and my outpatient clients likely suffered lower quality treatment from me during this time. I know everyone around me suffered a lower quality me.

We are historical materialists. Because of the suffering caused by capitalism, it can be easy to lose sight of the materialist understanding of capitalism as an inevitable and necessary next step beyond feudalism, leading to socialism. Capitalism is not an entity you can diagnose as evil and then determine that everything birthed from within it is therefore also evil. That's idealism. The fact that psychiatry and therapy inherited flaws from operating within a capitalist system says absolutely nothing about their inherent nature, the intent of them, nor their impact.

Now let's get more specific. This entire dance of tying capitalism and psychiatry together utterly ignores basic realities - like the fact that some mental illnesses seem to be primarily organic, that is, relating to the person's biological make-up, their "wiring." Primary examples of this include ADHD, Bipolar and Schizophrenia. If you suppose a person with schizophrenia or bipolar would suddenly be highly functional, absent medication, in a world where we've reached international communism, you are simply making a massive, uneducated guess. We don't know that, and anyone who has spent considerable time among the severely mentally ill population will tell you that it seems extremely unlikely. Further, we haven't reached communism, so it seems reasonable to suggest we do what we can for people who are suffering currently.

A lot of anti-psychiatry rhetoric seems to come from the neurodivergent crowd, specifically people with ADHD and/or autism, who have felt mistreated by the field of psychiatry because they aren't disordered, just different from the type of person who succeeds under capitalism. There is a lot of truth to this, and I wish I had better answers for these individuals. Perhaps under communism, people with ADHD and Autism will feel no need for therapy. Then again, perhaps they'll still suffer from higher rates of depression than other people, simply because they find it harder to fit in socially. A lot of unhelpful speculation is required to even have that conversation. I'm more interested in helping people with the problems they say they want help with in their lives, at this point in time.

Now to get on to what most people think of when they think of psychiatry and therapy. When I'm helping someone with OCD learn to work past their compulsions effectively enough that they can finally do something enjoyable with their time, no one gives a flying fuck if capitalism has to do with why they can't stop checking, and re-checking that everything in their home is "just right." When I'm helping a socially anxious person find human connection, or a depressed person find something rewarding to engage in, again, the discussion of how their mental illness is a result of capitalism feels trivial in the face of their suffering. Yes, every single one of my clients deserves revolution. No, I'm not capable of bringing about that revolution on my own, but I can help my clients make friends and find meaning in the lives they do have under this capitalist system.

The last problem with anti-psychiatry being tied to Marxism is more pragmatic: People who are curious about communism come to this site. Most people's (with very unfortunate but real exceptions) experience of psychiatry and therapy will not map onto the exploitative machine described by the anti-psychiatry folks any more than their experience of the medical field does. This means that any curious liberal who comes into this space looking for answers is going to be immediately turned off.

Anyway, I'm really thankful for this place and hope this post doesn't make me a pariah around here in the future. Thanks for reading, comrades.

Edit: A previous version of this post contained language that was unfair to the anti-psychiatry crowd. This was a mistake pointed out to me in the comments, and I see what they mean. I'll do better with that in the future.

Hello. Hopefully I won’t get banned for mentioning some stuff happening in China. From a western perspective, China seems perfect. There is a Communist Party in charge and the constitution says people have labor rights. But I want to examine some topics which make me very uncomfortable. For reference: Grew up in China 2002 to 2012, Moved to America, currently going through University in Americar, planning to go back to China immediately when I finish and restore People’s Republic citizenship. After living in the west for 10 years I am a hardcore communist. After I read the Little Red Book it was one of the most awesome things I ever read. I am grateful that the most populous country with such a huge territory and long history has a Communist government. Forgive me if I’m a bit on edge, the whole Nancy Pelosi Bullshit is making me very very stressed. If Americar and China are going to fight, at least do so after I escape Americar and go back to my family.

For those of you who doubt me: 如果你真的怀疑我是中国人，你觉得一个假中国人能写出这样的话吗？当然， 现代有谷歌翻译，但是毕竟谷歌翻译是机器，有时候还会不能完美地模仿人类的自然语言。全世界无产阶级人民团结！！！

Please please please don’t just see the epic People’s Liberation Army videos or the official news reportings, there is so much on bilibili and zhihu that a westerner wouldn’t know unless you are fluent in the language.

Tsinghua University Rainbow flags incident. Recently there has been an incident with Tsinghua University, one of the most prestigious higher education places in the coutnry. (the fact that this place is prestigious is problematic to me. Aren’t we communists supposed to, you know, ensure equality? I don’t think Westerners truly understand just how unequal education is in China. The quality of school facilities in rich and poor areas are just absolutely incomparable, and graduates of prestigious universities get much better jobs and much better income, which just isn’t fair. An engineering graduate is an engineering graduate, there shouldn’t be any differences in educational standards in different schools) A student left 10 little LBGT rainbow flags on a table, then was punished for it because the school says it is “宣传品“ which can be translated as propaganda OR informational materials. Not everything has to do with LGBT is about western infiltration you know. How can a student be punished for simply leaving 10 (TEN) rainbow flags? It’s a general symbol of Sexual and Gender Minorities. If there is proof of western infiltration, then yes, that is a problem. Right now I see very little Native Chinese activity in terms of LGBT. I agree the Chinese need our own LGBT awareness programs but it just isn’t happening. I don’t know why the central people’s government isn’t just coming out and saying people shouldn’t discriminate against LGBT. Even the word LGBT is western in origin, the Chinese need their own word for it. I think we should use 奻𤲶双跨. Each zi corresponds to each letter in LGBT. On Weibo微博 there were people arguing over this, in typical Chinese shitshow fashion. I heard enough of this in my childhood, my grandparents and my mother are all practitioners of the well-respected art of yelling. (Me too, although I tend to do more targeted insults, against homophobia, transphobia, corporate bootlicking, western bootlicking, religious persecution of others etc). There are very many extremely homophobic people on there saying that this is “western infiltration“ and that the students deserve even more punishment. Some say that Homosexuals should keep to themselves. The problem is, Homosexuals just aren’t seen in society, and if LGBT keep to themselves, how can they ensure that they are not discriminated against in terms of employment, education, and other opportunities? What about school bullying, domestic violence, suicides? How can Gay people even find love if they can’t even say “hey, we are gay?” There were nice people who argued FOR LBGT and insulted the homophobes, by saying that homophobes have no culture (没文化is a very common insult in China) and that although homopbobes say that homosexuals are diseased, the true disease are the homophobes themlseves. When I became a Communist in America, it’s precisely because they are simply the better side, the left supports LGBT, the right does not. I can’t deal with the fact that my home country, which should embrace Marxist Materialism according to its own ruling party, has so much homophobia. Western report: https://supchina.com/2022/07/27/the-rise-and-fall-of-lgbtq-student-groups-in-china/ Report in Chinese language (but not from China), it contains what looks to be official school documents for the students’ consequences. https://chinadigitaltimes.net/chinese/684454.html
I couldn’t find any official reportage of this Tsinhua University event, but I do see it being talked about on social media. https://weibo.com/3349258552/KnEhha2e7?refer_flag=1001030103_ Weibo post reporting the government shutting down multiple university LGBT organizations. The user is happy and calls LGBT dirty and disgusting. Some people cite Marx and Engels who were homophobic. I understand that Marx and Engels were from a very different era and I love them despite their homophobia. I know that if they were born in a different time they definitely wouldn’t be homophobes.

The other problem I want to discuss is 996. So…. How are we going to fight against it? Is the government making any progress? They condemned it in 2021. Are companies actually being forced to give their employees human hours? Are companies giving them a 40 hour workweek with 2 days off each week? It is an incredible shame that in a Leftst Red country this sort of exploitation exists. Keep in mind that I ain’t saying Americar is good. University prices are sky high and Americans will NEVER be able to retire OR get a house. The American government is controlled by money. But that doesn’t matter because China shouldn’t be comparing itself against America. China should be comparing itself against the metrics of Communism. I see some western tovarishi (comerades) say that 996 is only in Shanghai and Macau and HongKong. Not true. It is a phenomenon all over. Some western comrades say that this is only the tech industry. Not true. I look on the Chinese internet and it seems to me 996 is a very widespread phenomenon across multiple sectors in multiple places. It is an unmentionable shame that a thousands years old culture which values FAMILY above all gives people 0 (ZERO) time to be with their family. This is not even mentioning the nongmingong (workers who have rural hukou/registration but who go to work in cities) who cannot buy houses in cities for some reason, they live in shitty accomodations and can only see their families for 15 days in Chinese New Near. Paid time off and vacations don’t exist in Chinese culture. Your boss and coworkers WILL call you and expect you to answer, IF you somehow manage to convince your superiors that you deserve a break. And the Hierarchical culture… Is absolutely disgusting. Higher ups will lord it over you like some feudal official. We are 共产主义者for fucks sake we should be equal. Now I admit I spent half of my life in America so I haven’t experienced things personally but I follow Chinese social media quite closely. It really is that bad. And before you accuse me of being a western spy or a Eff Bee Eye, first see if you can read this. If you can’t, then you should probably consider the fact that this is MY culture not yours.. 中华文化是我的文化。我有资格去评价当前的中国人的网上谈论。 The Law has been against 996 exploitation for a VERY long time. But why has the government taken so long to act? Are their policies effective? You can’t just say you’re against something and not use all available force to punish these bad things. Americar makes laws and doesn’t enforce them, I don’t want China to become like America.

Another worrying phenomenon is a new way of looking at history. Confucious, a misogynistic monarchist who puts book-men(who do ceremonies or something) over farm laborers (who provide food) is rehabilitated by the Party. In Official documentaries about history, I see Emperors being praised. This is very dangerous because I can’t see myself loving these dudes who lived in palaces and had 100s of women to play with while their subjects labored in the fields. I see so much traditionalism in Chinese media and not enough revolutionary culture. Why? Please just why? The Great Helmsman (Mao) spent so much time fighting against feudal society. And in recent years, xenophobia is on the rise in Chinese online discours. Everything Chinese is good and Foreign things are bad. If China needs something, it has to be Chinese. LGBT is from the west therefore it is bad. Why would one listen to music from the West if one has good Chinese music to listen to? Westerners don’t beat their children, so we Chinese do. It’s only natural. Everything has to be Chinese nowadays. Where does cultural confidence end and chauvinism begin? I agree every single damn country needs cultural confidence. Look at the rise of the Right in Germany. If you’re not gonna teach to the young Deutschen good Deutsche Kultur, they will fall to Right Wing German culture, the bad part of Deutscher Kultur. And before you accuse me of being a western spy or a Eff Bee Eye, first see if you can read this. If you can’t, then you should probably consider the fact that this is MY culture not yours.. 中华文化是我的文化。我有资格去评价当前的中国人的网上谈论。

Please please please don’t just see the epic People’s Liberation Army videos or the official news reportings, there is so much on bilibili and zhihu that a westerner wouldn’t know unless you are fluent in the language.

is his opinion on Land Back, with i will put an link here where he explains his opinion in a more clear way; long history short, he is not against giving land back for the natives, he is pro-landback, but he points out that there is actually 2 land backs; LandbackTM (corporate bs wanting to make money on the natives cause) vs massline Landback (land reform that respects self-determination, treaties, and nature aka actual anti-colonization). He is pointing out how the first one is basically using an much more agressive and corporative view, that is just tainting the movement reputation, much like how corporations make money on race problems or lgbt-rights, doing extremelly ofensive "representations" that just taint the movement as an whole. I think i explained enough stuff about caleb, but i will also put a little more thought on the setler issue quickly: Basically some people misinterpretated something me and Saddam said about the situation on Palestine and Isnt'Real, where when we told how the Israeli population should not support the colonization of palestine, because its not on their best interests EVEN if they get "free land" for their suport. Why should they not support them? because as we all know as marxists, the land is not trully being gived to the israeli population, you see, an funny bearded german guy talked about this 180 years ago, and he said that "the burgeoise own all means of production, and the working class only has their own work value, so they sell it to the burgeoise at bare minimun prices imposed by the burgeoise so they dont starve" very simple right? So in this case, the burgeoise might look like they are giving land, but they are creating an artificial burgeoise at best, why would they give free land for the filthy peasants just for some public support am i right? They are mostly using the israeli population to quickin the process of full colonization of palestine, so if the palestinians revide on any type of way, the xionist midia will flip it as "the barbarian muslins killing our poor white civilians, we need apartheid state now reeeeee!!!!", but when they are able to take the land from the palestinians, they will eventually take the land back from the israelis because of the falling rate of proffit, where when the burgeoise starts making more and more money over the means of production stolen from the palestinians, the israelli workers will not make more money, they will in fact start losing money, and when they are bankrupted by their low wages and increasingly higher prices, they will start losing their land to the burgeoise, with only a few rich burgeoise and petty burgeoise that moved there from the start actually keeping the land, thus creating an artificial burgeoise, getting rid of the palestinians AND taking everything from Israelli workers, three rabits on a single shot, this is why this white supremacist paradise the burgeoise is marketing is not going to last, because capitalism is not going to last because it is not susteinable. Now, some people said that the israellis being coerced into the colonisation will actually keep getting money because Israel will aways be funded by the US and will keep stealing from the countries around it, like syria, Lebanon, etc, and thats because Israel is an imperialist state, with is true for the time being, it is not going to last, like everything capitalism makes us thing it will succed, it awys fails horribly after enough time, imperialism is not susteinable, apartheids are not susteinable, because there is just enough popular apeasing souless capitalist monsters can bother to do to keep their own population in check before its start not being enough, imperialism is agressive towards other countries, and apartheids are agressive towards the majority of the native population, Israel might have looked like the winning side an decade or two ago, but the US eventually will stop giving money, and eventually the countries around it will not support Israel prescense anymore, and eventually the palestinian population will get even more agressive towards the invaders, and eventually even the israelli population will not support their countries actions, like many israellis that are pro-palestine already do (ironically, the most orthodox and conservative jews are some of the most anti-xionists out there, because their own religion says that Israel will only, and should only, be formed on the prophet comes back, so Israel existence is against the judaic religion as an whole), Israel is eventually going to collapse like every apartheid and imperialist state do, and when it collapses, there will not be enough apeasement of the xionists to convince the population that colonialism is still good. An other thing i see debated on this topic is: what should we do with the settler population living on the natives land? Well, its quite simple, we move enough them to other parts of the country (with help and remuneration of the state) and give enough land to the native population live in peace. On the case of Israel, a lot of xionist scum moved there to enjoy an easy life on their apartheid state wet dream, those people can fuck off, xionists are getting kicked out, but the normal israeli population can just be moved to their respective place (where they should have stayed when Israel was created) and the palestinians can keep the land that is rightfully theirs, and of course, be remunerated by because of the damage imperialism did to them. All right, i think i got everything from this issue, lets continue.

What the fuck is an Patsoc? Well it is an very shaddy question, as almost everyone here dont have an actual idea of what they are, but from what ive seem from Infrared and Caleb Maupin, with dont actually call themselves patsocs, this is an buzzword used to shame other mls you disagree with, basically an ml version of the word "tankie", what most people here are reffering to when they talk about "patsocs" is or Caleb and Infrared (and just those 2 lol) or are some weird assholes from twitter that are saying dumb shit (classic twitter that we aways make fun of) but somehow those 2 different things, that are 2 communist activists on one side, and twitter nobodys on the other, somehow got related to each other. Now i have talked about Caleb, so i will now talk about infrared; he is an very intense person, and has some weird takes from time to time, but he is not an fascist, or an revisionist, like caleb, he tries to reach the more conservative and liberal population by baiting them with conservative simbols, he is not an rascist, he doesnt hate lgbt people, he is not pro-colonization, he is not any of the things actual fascists are, he is just an communist that uses traditional and conservative talking points to talk with traditional and conservative parts of society, just like caleb. You can say they are flawed, that their methods are flawed, it is fine, but stop lying for fuck sake, stop using words that are not meaning what they should, please actually try to hear what they have to say before making an goddamn idealist purge, and stop using this fucking buzzword and this artificial creation of an "massive evil organization of revisionists we need to fight at all costs", its literally 2 dudes, its not an organization, its not an ideology, so please stop with this infantile ideological purge! its exactly lack of communication and understanding of what one side of comrades is saying to the other is what creates useless discussion that is not leading to nothing besides infighting and hate towards eachother. Now, continuing to the next point...

What is patriotism (from an ML-pov)? Patriotism is love for the country, plain and simple, but, we as mls aways make fun of capitalist patriots because they are loving something that hates them, and their love for the country is blinding them from the fact that the burgeoise is scamming then. Now, if capitalist patriotism is bad, then what is communist patriotism then? We are of course, the bigger patriots, we are ready to fight against an ruthless sistem and unite the masses to save our countries from destruction that capitalism brings, but if we are patriots and communists on capitalist nations, how can we exist? Well, its simple, we dont love the burgeoise state, we love the raw country, the people that live on it, the core of it, not the burgeoise on power, we want to kick out the burgeoise and create an socialist state, but an state is not what defines an country, it is what guides and represent the country, the people are the country, our job as patriots to love our people, our country, to liberate them from capitalism as guide them to a better future, we need to help our country by getting ridden of the traitorous burgeoise destroying it for self proffit, and install an ploretarian dictatorship, where the people, the country, is on control of things through the state. This is what patriotism is, love for the country, love for the people, not love for the state. Continuing now to the hardest thing of this entire rant...

(Caption limit again (damn this got big) please use the last part to talk about the situation, and to read about my last issue...)

Muad'dibber, what the fuck? I used to respect you as an moderator, you are modding lemmygrad for more then a year, much longer then since genzedong got banned, so why now, all of a sudden, you decided to do this? And i want an actual response, dont you even dare to delete my post before people are able of actually reading it, i am going to save everything i writed here and i will post it on subs where you are not an mod, I want this to be an post to clear this mess, and it will stay up, like you or not, till this situation is over; Muad'dibber has on the last 3 days been openly anti-patsoc, and he got since the last day on some nasty arguments against SaddamHussain, me, and PolandAsAStateOfMind, us three where calling out the fact his "critiscism" of "patsocs" was mostly bs, Saddam explained to him on the most civilized way possible why what Muad was saying was just wrong, and Muad started openly diffamating Saddam, calling him an pro israel reactionary, with was when i entered on this mess and sayed to muad how he was lying, how saddam never sayed he was pro Israel, nor pro settler, and the people on the threads where agreeing with me, oh and minutes after getting on the argument with Saddam, Muad created AN ENTIRE COMMUNITY just to diss on "patsocs" with is honestly pathetic, using your power as an mod to openly create propaganda to get an advantage on a fucking internet argument that you are losing?! Oh, and when people started openly saying that no drastic measures where needed, that we should not go at each others throats for something so small, and that there was even people that where being openlly anti-patsoc calling out muad as just being mad at Saddam and Saddam expecifically, and that he was not even trying to make sense anymore. He now has deleted most of saddam comments to cover the facts, is deleting my comments calling him out, banned both me and Saddam (and he did not even give an warning to me) and is putting commentaries on the moderation historic saying we where being "pro-israel", "Reactionary", "patsocs", "pro-imperialism", "pro"colonialism", etc, complete and absolute slanders and petty lies.

Now, what i want to do with this, i want this post to stand here so we are able of talking about this issue, i want mine and Saddam account unbanned, i want the Arguments with Muad, Me and Saddam to be unremoved (if possible) so people can see what was happening and make their own conclusions, and i want that Muad come here and defend himself. I have been participating on both lemmygrad AND the former r/Genzedong subreddit since december of last november of last year, i am one of the most active members here, i have proved myself over and over that i am in fact a leftist, and that i am in fact a communist, AND i am not accepting that my entire social life on the internet that resolves entirelly on using this site to talk with other people i agree with gets nucked into fucking oblivion because a single person got mad he lost on an internet argument. Now mods, come here and say everything you want to say, but i want my right of expressing myself on this.

As you have all noticed, this seems to be a point of contention here. This is a good thing, since it means someone will learn something.

Now we seem to be all over the place, with this general area of thought, provoking many questions. Whether or not PatSocs are socially conservative, what is position on social conservatism? Many of us are very young, both in age and ML experience, so an online discussion would be a great learning tool.

1. Are socially conservative individuals allowed to be apart of the leftist movement?

• A. Are socially conservative individuals victims of bourgeois propaganda?

-B. If socially conservative people are turned away by the left, where do they go?

-C. How high of a position would a social conservative be allowed in a ML party?

-D. How has or will MLs educate socially conservative folk?

-E. &tc, &tc.

2. What exactly is Patriotism?

-A. Does patriotism depend on culture?

-B Is possible for a distinction between patriotism for a country and wanting to abolish the state?

-C. Is patriotism corrupted in the Core?

-D How have post imperialist countries with Communist experiments built patriotism?

-E. &Tc &TC

3. Who even are the PatSocs?

-A. If the label is too convuluted, should we make a distinction between Maupin and American exceptionalists?

-B. Who of the leaders do we consider MLs?

-C. Should patriotic socialist be distinct from socialism or is inherent in socialism?

-D. How much do WE even know if PatSocs?

-E. &Tc, &tc

We can look at the USSR and GDR for these questions. Remember the Hammer and Sickel came from somewhere.

Things to look out for about the US:

-It is the imperialist power, AND a settler state.

-Low levels of cultural development

-The culture that is there is taken from marginalized groups.

-Americas are the most propagandized people in the World.

-It is huge and incredibly diverse

More questions about the US could follow:

-Should the US be balkanized? If so how does patriotism be built in balkanized regions?

-How does land back go about? Will indigenous countries emerge, and if so should we reconsider American MLs as different MLs for the Regions in North America.

-If we see different nations and regions in North America how does that affect culture? Is the question of how we view the land a prerequisite to discussing patriotism, is it contradictory to call yourself an American Patriot if you decide to divide up the land until regions?

There is so much potential for deep political for North American based Comrades, this is a rabbit hole I do want to delve into. I'll cross post this to GZD but I want it mainly on Leftist Infighting.

Edit: spacing issues

"Anarchists are communists" now? I've never once recognized this, and I'm still kinda questioning why r/sls is so intent on playing protectionist over people the FBI made specifically to be wreckers. Idgi, but it frankly sickens me.

His follow‐up post.

I have no comment.

So it seems to me that across many spaces there is a tendency to water down queer and gender issues into the cynical commercialism that finance capitalists have pushed for. Among communists I see this with what people in Donbas have said, what a person from the DPRK has said to a Chinese interviewer, and it is also found in the west. Also in sections of the Indigenous community oftentimes elders will claim that (ironically) white people made up Two-Spirit people, all despite evidence to the contrary.

We also see characters like Putin rallying around this idea that the west is obsessed with "gender freedoms" despite the very obvious coordinated crackdowns against these supposed "freedoms" in the west.

When I hear people make these claims I am baffled because I am certain that colonialism has damaged and (attempted to) erase Indigenous gender expressions around the world. To say that queer issues can be boiled down to liberalism is clearly false and likley has its root in colonialism. Yet communists and other forces that are otherwise opposed to the financial imperialist system are not unified on this issue.

It does seem clear that the west tries to weaponize human rights to justify war and to justify investments. It also demonizes and makes sure to show when its enemies show these sentiments. But this reactionary strain of communism has failed to explain how the bourgeoisie apparently invented trans people without simply criticising their least favorite liberal feminist or gender theorist (perhaps Judith Butler). But gender is dynamic and if it has been molded by capital in this way then it should be demonstrable beyond criticisms of a single theorist or a single field.

I myself am absolutely no expert on gender or queer theory. Im straight and grew up in a reactionary home. Im hoping people here can give insight on how to address these issues that exist among communists. I think we can tallow the west to use human rights to further colonize the world and gender issues accross the world probably manifest differently and that should be understood and respectes. Simultaneously, we cant allow this erroneous view that the western bourgeoisie is not only the protector of gender rights, but its progenitor.

Anyways, I am hoping for some discussion on this.

How can I possibly mentally deal with the Soviet deportations? It is NEVER OK to punish an entire ethnic group for the crimes of some of the people.

Transcript:

As the war in Ukraine grinds on, I feel like I should take the time to talk about tankies within the Left. Whoo boy.

First, what is a tankie?
The term originates from the 2nd half of the 20th century. There was a large schism within the Left at that time, after the Soviet union rolled tanks into Hungary and Czechoslovakia when the two tried to break out of the Soviet sphere of influence.
While most leftists opposed this, there were some weirdos who supported the Soviets in their brutal crackdowns. These were the OG tankies back then.

Second, the Soviet Union back in that time period. It wasn't socialist or communist. It was a fascistic oligarchy, that later transitioned into far-right kleptocracies, with the exception of those countries that ended up with the West.
Here's the name of the game: build a totalitarian dictatorship with a ruling class of strongmen and cleptocrats, and then put "The People's" in front of the name.
As such, the People's Republic of Hungary wasn't the people's and wasn't a republic, just like every other country under Soviet military occupation.

Enter modern day tankies, carrying the torch of authoritarianism onward. If you've seen leftists in support of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, chances are they were tankies.

The alpha and omega of tankie political thought is "US bad" (here "US" includes the West as a whole). From this, they extrapolated that anything opposing the US must be good by definition.

Who opposed or currently opposes the US? The Soviet Union. China. Russia. Syria. North Korea. Cuba. The list goes on.

You might notice that these countries all happen to be horrible dictatorships with the aforementioned ruling classes of strongmen and cleptocrats. They disappear people with dissenting political opinions, forming opposition parties or opposing news outlets is either banned or severely restricted, heavy state propaganda is broadcast to the population 24/7, and so on.

Every person with an IQ above room temperature (in Celsius) agrees that these governments are the opposite of good.

Tankies disagree.

Why? Because US bad.

In their minds the US is such a comically overexaggerated evil that even the most horrible actions taken by opposing governments are justified.

China bans forming independent workers' unions? Well, they have to, because those unions would be controlled by the CIA.

Cuba throws political dissidents in jail? Well, they have to, because those people are surely US-puppets.

Russia invades Ukraine after the latter drifts away from its sphere of influence? Well, they had to, they were afraid of US-led "NATO expansion".

You might have guessed it already, but tankies aren't leftists. They only adopted the aesthetics of what many consider "leftist", i.e. symbols associated with the Soviet Union for the most part. Otherwise they're just fascists painted red.

Leftists don't stan for dictatorships and oligarchies. Tankies do.

Leftists don't condone jailing political opponents. Tankies do.

Leftists don't deny genocides like the Holodomor, or what China does to Uygurs. Tankies do.

Leftists don't support Russian blood and soil imperialistic action against Ukraine. Tankies do.

The list goes on.

Especially now, every effort must be taken to excise these lunatics from the left, and send them off to the far-right where they belong. Otherwise they'll keep festering on leftism like a tumor, making it much harder to bring people over.

Next time you see a tankie, feel free to hurl a creative insult of your choice in their direction. In fact, you should.

Thank you, rant over.

[insert tiresome and unfunny ableist image here]

The most important thing needs to be said first. I am not well read on Maoist theory and history apart from On Contradiction by Mao (which is not really Maoist). So whatever I say, you may as well completely disregard it. It won't any difference.

As everyone here probably knows Chairman Gonzalo died on 11/9/2021. On Reddit at least not many people are mourning. /r/GenZedong's pretty elated about it. I personally don't know enough to take a stance.

/r/communism mods are pretty protective of Guzman's legacy. The truth is that every communist figure is heavily slandered in mainstream capitalist canon. Guzman is pretty unique in that he has a bad reputation among communists as well.

I have been trying to read/watch/listen about the Sendero Luminoso and there is definitely a lot of questionable aspects to them. One thing I found out about is the massacres they have conducted. The victims here are usually indigenous peasants. An example is the Lucanamarca massacre, which the party has confirmed was a directive from it's central leadership.

The thing that makes it the most confusing is that the accusations against the Shining Path are superficially similar to PragerU/Victims of Communism-tier slander against previous communist leaders. For example, it's said that Chairman Gonzalo fostered a cult of personality, using armed indigenous peasants as cannon fodder. I am not yet sure if this was true or not, but going to Maoist blogs and websites and always seeing him being praised as the greatest MLM thinker alive does not instill much confidence. This is just a shallow comment though. For something more substantial I will have to read a bit more.

Back to the topic, the mods of the subreddit don't like what they call revisionism. But the refutations that I see are not very convincing. The articles that are linked are not easy to read but I guess they are targeted towards someone who is more enlightened about the broader context.

The mods seem very knowledgeable so I expected more. Since revisionism is so prevalent, I expected to find some good refutations. But instead I just find a appreciation for furthering Marxist theory, waging a war that, while it did achieve significant victories, ended up failing. As communists, I expected appreciation of results and material gains but instead the realm of preference seems to be ideological dogmatism.

Overall it's very confusing.

First, let me clarify. The concept of someone being a "race traitor" is inherently a fascist concept. It was used by the Nazis to call Germans who fought against the Nazis as traitors to the "Ayran race" and it is still used today by neo-Nazi groups and groups such as the Ku Klux Klan to call out white leftists as traitors to the "white race."

Biological race does not exist. The genetic diversity between humans is far lower than the average genetic diversity of other mammals. The differences control arbitrary things like the shape of your eyes, the colour of your skin, and your resistance to tropical diseases. Biological race does not exist. Race is a social construct created for racists and fascists to justify their oppression.

So when I hear leftists on GenZedong calling some asian guy an "honorary white" or "race traitor" (although the person who did that got called out and apologised/edited their comment) it frankly disgusts me.

People do not owe a duty to their race. The idea that they do is literally a fascist concept. The minute people start accusing others of being "race traitors," they are spouting fascist bullshit. Because again, people do not inherently owe a duty to their race.

r/GenZedong, despite me generally liking it, delves too close time and time again to fascist racial bullshit. One person is talking about the concept of a Hanjian as betraying "the Han State" which is is just Han chauvinism supported by a bunch of sinophiles. People are confusing fights for emancipation with chauvinist fascist bullshit.

This is what happens when people entirely ignore the class character of this sort of shit in favour of race reductionist bullshit. When people are too concerned with crackers and not enough about the class conflict and its enforcement of systematic racism and imperialism, preferring instead to blame it on "crackers" as though the average Joe the Miner is supporting the War on Terror because it's part of his evil plan to destroy Muslims and not because he's been fed bullshit by racist right-wing media. This isn't to say racism and imperialism aren't issues, but that they are part of the greater class conflict.

Is Barack Obama an "Uncle Tom" or a "Race Traitor?" No, because he doesn't owe servitude to his "race." He serves his class, the bourgeoisie. Candace Owens isn't a race traitor, because she doesn't owe servitude to her race, she serves as a token black lady who's job is to give right-wing outlets like TPUSA and Pragur U credibility.

Race reductionism is fucking stupid. The concept of people "betraying their race" is fucking stupid. It's an argument made by skinheads for skinheads and the fact people are so caught up in their rabid anti-cracker campaigning to realise they're gobbling down literal fascist arguments is fucking astounding to me.