Zh: Zhang

Drew: All right, everybody. Here we are. Welcome to episode 4 of the GPCR podcast. We are here, having our first interview for the podcast. I’m here right now with my friend Uncle Z(hang).

Zhang: Yes. Yes. Glad to see you, Mr. Drew. (laughs)

Drew: Yes. It's great to see you again, Uncle Z. Uncle Z and I met through an English corner a few months back and we have been corresponding back and forth and uh he and I are going to chop it up a bit and I've got 10 questions to ask him about what life was like being a kid growing up during the Cultural Revolution. So, here we go. Here's my first question. Are you ready?

Zhang: Ready.

Dr: All right. So, uh I know you were born here in Xi’an in ' 67, right?

Zh: Uh 1967 in Xinjang, not in Xi’an.

Dr: Oh, so you're Xinjiangren. Uh what city?

Zh: Do you know this small city, nearby Urumqi? Uh 150 kilometers, the distance between Urumqi and Shihezi

Dr: Okay. Interesting. Interesting. But um obviously since you were born in 1967, you were much too young to remember the most radical phase of the cultural revolution. Uh but maybe you could tell me a quick bit about your familyhood and your childhood overall before we get into talking about the revolution.

Zh: Let's talk together. Are you interested in history? Let's go together.

We have some passers by. We had some passers by say hello to us. Uh although I was young, I remember a lot. I can remember my dad, he also joined one party (faction?). One party fight against another party. Uh but the party my dad joined, they lost. So they escape here and there because they are afraid of uh revenge, that they will take revenge.

Dr: Mhm. So your dad joined one Hongweibing faction

Zh: in Chinese, zaofanpai (rebel)

Dr: Zaofanpai… Interesting. All right. Okay. Well, keep on going. Tell us tell us more.

Zhang: Yes. Uh my mother told my father, "Don't worry. Don't worry. Uh both of us, we believe in Mao Zedong, Mao Zhuxi (Chairman Mao) so nothing happened. My dad, she he feared he feared uh what if the enemy uh take range (aim) at me but nothing happened. My mother said you do not need to go out, just stay at home. So nothing happened. I can remember my mom told the story. Uh but when I was in primary school, I took part in many meetings, parade like uh sing a song or uh dance.

Dr: I'll get to that in a second. Uh but my next question is um I know you told me uh the first time we met your aunt was a red guard. Um, do you remember her being particularly active?

Zh: Uh I was a hongxiaobing (red child guard) but auntie she was a hongweibing (red guard). I saw her in the school. Uh she wore an armband in her left arm. I thought I saw her. She was a real hongweibing. I was a real hongxiaobing, but we were not so crazy. We were not crazy.

Dr: So she was not part of a particularly radical faction of the of the Red Guards.

Zh: No, no, no. She wasn’t, uh when she was in her uh second school, most of her uh classmates they joined include uh hing including her. Uhhuh. I saw her um but most of them, they were not crazy. They were just students in the school. They never did uh what happened similar to uh in Beijing or in some other cities such as uh fight some people they think they are enemies. No, they never did this.

Dr: So you would definitely say that a lot of the factional violence is exaggerated in in history.

Zh: Uh in my hometown um never happened. Never happened. Violence never happened. At least within our school, it never happened. But in the society I know happened. Some people, they how to say this, they took suicide.

Dr: Oh wow.

Zh: Commit suicide.

Dr: Yeah. Yes. Some people did commit suicide. So some people did commit suicide because of of like humiliation and things like that.

Zh: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr: Well that that that did happen. Okay. So, uh, what year did you enter primary school? So, our listeners can get a good frame of time.

Zh: Let me see, uh, when I was seven, I think it should have been in 1974.

Dr: Okay. So, near the So, near the So, you were in the near around 74. Um, so what was school like at that time compared to say primary school today for your kids? Like what were your teachers like? What subjects did you take?

Zh: Um I think similar like in uh in what happened now because most our pupils we study, although sometimes we take took part in some meetings some activities, it was not very clear what the revolution was. We were just led by our teachers, our principle. Uh they ordered or they ask us what we do. We just do uh like what they ask us to do. So we are not real uh crazy. We what we perform we should be led by the leaders. for what we perform. We are not very clear what it mean what it means.

Dr: It was just okay, you know, we're kids. We're going to have fun. We don't really know the deep politics behind it, but but it's pretty and we're having fun. (No indeed)

Zh: Uh it's but it's very interesting. Interesting.

Dr: Yeah.

Zh: I also take to put in some activities. We we dance. We singing uh in uh in a club. Uh I I felt it was very interesting.

Dr: Awesome.

Zh: Uh some of the songs uh I can remember Pi Lin, Pi Kong 2x.

Dr: Yeah. Yeah. Denounce Lin Biao, denounce Confucius.

Zh: Yeah. In in the song we condemn, we condemn Kong Qiu, [...] and Lin Biao

Dr: Yes. So I do remember reading that uh primary school students were often uh mobilized and brought to uh be part of the criticize Lin Bao and Kong Fuzi campaign. Um so uh how would you say being a Hongxiaobing was different from say being a young pioneer in today's China? Was there any difference you think?

Zh: No big difference. I have to say, no big difference. Although in some movies, in some TVs uh they exaggerate what happened but I know um when I was hongxiaobing ,what I did is exactly the same that what the students, what the pupils do. Now we study,we learn from Lei Feng, we help the old, we help our neighbors, we do many things that can benefit our society and benefit our neighbors. So this is what we should do. Until now, I still think as a hongxiaobing, uh I did many good things similar to what the young uh pioneers do.

Dr: Now, that's great. That's great to hear and I'm glad to see that that spirit is still continuing among Chinese youth. Um, here's a more difficult question. So some western historians say that during the cold war, children were viewed in a very different way in China than in the rest of the world. They say that in the west and in the Soviet Union, children were portrayed as innocent and defenseless victims of war and aggression. But in China, children were taught to be little red warriors and not to be protected from the harsh reality of world revolution. Uh, would you say that this was true?

Zh: I cannot explain, it is not very clear what you mean.

Dr: Okay. So a lot of uh American historians say that um the way that children were viewed in uh China during the cold war. What is different from the way that children were viewed in other countries like the USA and Soviet Union especially when it came to the idea of war, um in like western movies and in Soviet movies, children are seen as hapless victims of war. Whereas in China, it seems like western historians often say that children were not protected from the cruel reality of war. They were taught, you know, that to be little red warriors of the world revolution. Would you say that that's true?

Zh: Somewhat. I don't think we commit {such} things. We are victims. Uh we uh yes uh we were taught we should be a brave red warrior only if there's an enemy that tries to invade us. In fact, the invasion did not happen. So although we all, some, uh some students older than us they often uh took part in some military training, I can see they were training in the square but nothing happened, Soviet Union, they didn't uh attack us, NATO, they didn't attack us, so we just prepare for the possible invasion war but it didn't happen.

Dr: But I think what’s interesting is that it seems like a lot of American and Russian historians say that they did not mobilize their youth for potential war in the same way that China did.

Zh: Uh yes it happened during that period. We think uh we were driven by two parties. One is from the West, one is from the Soviet Union. We had to prepare for a fight against potential attack from the Soviet Union or from the west.

Dr: Yeah, indeed that's true. Uh that was it. China was in a very very difficult situation to say the least. Zh: But we are not afraid. We we said we are prepared for fight enormously fight fear fierce uh even we we aren’t afraid fight use nuclear weapon

Dr: But the atom bomb is a paper tiger as Mao Zedong said. Okay. Uh next question. So what are some of your favorite memories about growing up at that time? You talked about some song and dance. What are some other common activities, dances, and games that Hongxiaobing would play that maybe aren't so common among kids anymore?

Zh: Okay. Um we often held a meeting uh, some pupils perform in front of the stage, including me. Uh somehow we simulate the heroes. Uh once we saw a movie, we will do what the heroes do in the movie. Uh this is the performance. The performance often means some political science. Uh although it was not clear. I know uh it is a kind of propaganda, propaganda. I know it, our teachers, they taught us what we do, what we perform. We are like puppies. [Laughs]

Dr: Um you might remember um, were loyalty dances still popular?

Zh: No -

Dr: Yeah, okay. Yeah, those were done by 1969

Zh: Very early earlier than where I was, I think when I was born they no longer perform the loyalty dance but my mom, she remember, even now sometimes, she shows us this kind of dance very interested very funny but since 1974 when I was in stage one, I no longer saw the dance like is because this is so funny, so stupid. Even some leaders, some creators, they don't agree.

Dr: Mhm. Even Mao actually did not like the loyalty dances. He sent a communique. He sent a letter to um a bunch of collective farms telling them to stop with the loyalty dances cuz he thought that they were silly and getting in the way of production and getting in the way of class struggle. So, even Mao didn't like the loyalty dances.

Zh: No, he didn't. He didn't agree.

Dr: Yeah. Um, so, uh, we have three more questions. So, what are some misunderstandings that you think a lot of people have about the cultural revolution, both Westerners and the younger generation of Chinese?

Zh: You mean some of our Chinese they have - we have some misunderstanding?

Dr: uh do you think that there is some misunderstanding of what really happened and uh what are some of the most common misunderstandings among both young Chinese and westerners?

Zh: uh some westerners they can only uh realize uh know this history period from the propaganda in western {perspective} but the western reporter journalist they often distort what happened so most of their propaganda are not the fact so I don't believe them even though In that crazy time uh most of us we are how to say it we are uh mo more mental mental mental. uh we're not {totally} crazy because we are human being we have to work we have to work to make necessary resources to make a living. Yes, some propaganda, some politics are necessary but most of the time we are busy on uh studying, working in factories, in schools, uh in in farms most are very busy.

Dr: So yes, a lot of times you hear the cultural revolution called 10 years of chaos, but what you're saying is yes, there was a lot of chaos, but at the end of the day, most people just got up, went to work, went to school, had fun, lived life just like you would any other time uh in history,

Zh: Right? Only a very short time. I think it should have happened only in 1970? uh there's a violence took place somewhere especially in uh Beijing in Chongqing even in Xi’an and even in Shihezi, I know there are some violence but not so crazy.

Dr: Mhm. Oh, you're talking about basically the factional fighting from August of 1967 to June of 1968.

Zh: Only a very short time during that uh only no more than two or three years. Yeah. Very soon chaos stop because the leaders, the government, they stop them. They they think it's crazy. We cannot fight within ourselves.

Dr: Indeed. Indeed. Um our our last two questions. So number nine, what do you think we can learn from the experience of that time period? Uh what do you think was like uh the worst parts and what were some of the better parts?

Zh: You mean in revolution?

Dr: Yeah.

Zh: Uh the best parts I think since I was in school. Uhhuh. Uh all things are getting better and not so crazy. But before I was in school, uh yes, some bad things really happened. So just like what I said, uh two parties they fought. Some people even were forced to commit suicide. Suicide. Uh some crazy uh some [Chinese words], they even try to uh kill people. But very few, only a few victims were killed or were forced to commit suicide very few. Not so many.

Dr: Yeah. So uh you know I often hear you know in American history they'd say that 50 million people were killed in the cultural revolution. 60 million. No it is probably much much lower.

Zh: If you you can calculate the uh statistics you can find supposing there are so many people, population, that were killed in that time at least one family, they have one victim can you imagine this crazy

Dr: yeah um I I've I've heard that more likely the if we count uh the factional fighting, the suicides and things like that. If we count all those together, I think it's probably it was more about 700,000 to a million.

Zh: No, no, no, no. Not not even. Not so many. Even less. Very few. Very few. I think no more than uh 50,000. No more all together in all our China country. No more than 50,000.

Dr: Wow. Only 50,000. That's a pretty low estimate, but that's really interesting. All right, so um our last question is any other comments you'd like to add to our western listeners? Uh what should Western listeners know about China today for our modern age?

Zh: Oh, you mean uh let let us give your western audience some comments.

Dr: Yeah, sure. Say say whatever you want. uh cuz like I said my my the vast majority of my listeners of my radio show are are in the west.

Zh: So in most likely you can see the communication is so convenient. Uh the the whole country, the whole world becomes become so small we can easily find what happened in the whole cities here and there. Uh so we know what happened in western countries. Um if some people try to make rumors to try to badmouth our Chinese, it is impossible. I wish we human being here and there, in the west or in the east, we can understand each other more.

Please don't believe too much from your country's journalists.

Dr: yes

Zh: They are not uh they are not honest journalists they are deceivers they are cheaters don't believe them. I give you example you are westerner you visit China can you see there's a very big uh uh contrast between what you hear what you heard in the West and what you see in China.

Dr: Absolutely. Absolutely. Things are much better in China. You know, there's no crazy stories about, you know, soldiers marching, you know, marching on every corner. You don't have huge concentration camps. You don't hear about people getting shot for not wearing a mask. You know, it's Yeah, the Western journalists and social media just can have some of the most outrageous things.

Zh: They don't believe or they don't want to believe uh what happened in China. We Chinese are so diligent so smart. We grew up so fast. So sooner or later ch China will become the strongest in the world or strongest country in the world. Nobody can stop it. the tendency. Dr: Yeah.

Zh: So just believe the belief, try to uh communicate, try to cooperate each other. Don't believe the rumors. If you trying to uh try to slow down the development of China, it's impossible. It's impossible. You you should realize you should uh you should uh know it's impossible.

Let our human beings from west and from China correct to make the world more beautiful make the the world more uh vivid. We Chinese, we also want to make friends with westerners. But some bad guys. Just what I said. Uh I I mean I point out the journalist they try to uh divide us from here from Western and our Chinese. Mhm.

Dr: Okay. One last question. Um when we were having dinner earlier, uh we were talking a little bit about you know various communist movements. We talked about Nepal and Peru and we talked about India. Um, do you as a former Hongxiaobing being have any advice for young communists in the west and uh maybe some ideas that they should be thinking about?

Zh: Believe in your uh thinking. Believe your believe in your uh not religion. believe in what you should believe. We Chinese, when we are very young, we already we already uh accept the formal education from primary school. We everyone knows uh we should be a good student, a good people uh good student. Uh do not try to uh pro promote pro pro

Dr: promote

Zh: promote, do not promote other people. Be a good man. Uh be uh be smart. Don't believe in some extremist. You know in modern society many people in other countries they try to believe in other uh thinkings other uh ideas different from your religion such as extremist is also very bad.

Dr: Yeah, like fascism and and things like that.

Zh: Yes. uh try try to try to believe what our party ask us to believe because our party only show us the way let us go forward along with the good the best way the good way so just what I said before now we both of us we believe in communism so the best system is socialist not capitalist even though what you try hard to to try our Chinese to turn to believe your religion or your thinking. It's impossible. It's impossible. We don't believe what you think. And we most of Chinese we don't believe any religion. But most westerners uh they like to believe religion. They eager to educate us, educate us to believe their religion. This is ridiculous. We Chinese we have our own tradition. When in when we were in Qin dynasty uh we were not uh very crazy on religion. We believe in Buddhist. Mhm. But we are, mind you, kind hearted. We don't believe we should uh we should enlarge our territory. We should kill more people to make our uh country bigger, stronger. No, this is what we should do. We don't believe this. We just want to develop ourselves to make our country make our hometown more beautiful. If you want to communicate with us, if you want to um you you want to uh make friend with us, just visit our ch China and see what happened in Chinese in China.

Dr: So your advice to young communists and young revolutionaries around the world is is visit China and stay strong, stay faithful to the communist ideals and know that it's inevitable that capitalism will fail.

Zh: Don't be any very various believing re uh religions. Most our Chinese we are very kind-hearted. We don't believe some very various belieings. Still by now I still don't understand why so many westerners they believe in in God. In my mind God does not exist. So as long as you believe in God you cannot communicate with a Chinese we in the same level, in the same platform. We are different only in this stage. We are different.

Dr: Well, you remember that remember what Marx said, religion is the opium of the people. It's the hope in a hopeless world. So in a capitalist country, people turn to religion as a comfort mechanism. For them, it's a source of comfort. So I think there's something that is lost on a lot of people who live in socialist society.

Zh: It can only make you happy for the time being. I don't believe it, but I think communism can make our the whole world better because as long as you believe in communist, what you do will uh what what will what you should do or what you do will benefit the whole society because communism or our communist party never let you do some harmful things to other people. But in western countries things are different. Some in churches some people uh such as pre preach preach (preachers). Yeah. Preachers some only tell you believe in God. Believe in God. If if some people don't believe in God, try to overturn them. Try to diminish them. Although they don't say this but in a very straight way but their what in their mind they think like this

Dr: man that's true that's true in America religion has a has a very deep uh grasp on our minds but uh hopefully um young communists and young people around the world will will cast off the shackles of dogmatic thinking be it religion or dogmatic ideas about socialism or racism, fascism, and things like this. And I hope they really will take your advice. Well, Uncle Z, thank you so much for uh this interview. Uh I've learned a lot, and I'm sure that my audience is going to learn a lot. Um I'll definitely send you a link of the interview when it's ready. Um and uh thank you so much.

Zh: Thank you, Drew. Maybe later we can talk in another place and let's go on our discussion.

Dr: Yes, definitely you can. Uh we are always here at the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution podcast. We're always uh you're always welcome to come back uh to you know talk about other things. Um if you have any other family members or friends who live during that time who would be open to uh talking um you know if they they're more than welcome to come on too.

Zh: I like to do I like I really want to enjoy uh to uh to introduce some people to uh tackle our uh discussion that the most difficult thing is they cannot speak English.

Dr: Yeah. Well, we could you know maybe have uh like a three-way discussion where they're here and you're here as the translator fi and then me as the interviewer.

Zh: I am not eligible translator. (humble)

Dr: Uh, your English is fantastic, man.

Zh: Thank you for your uh propagation. Thank you for your

Dr: Well, we'll figure something out. We'll figure something out sometime. All right, my friend. Well, thank you. And I guess we're going to cut this short. And uh to all of my other listeners, uh I hope that you have a great evening, have a great National Day, and I will be dropping another episode in uh maybe about 3 weeks where we will continue on uh where we left off after Red August and uh build things up to the January storm of 1967. How does that sound, guys? All right, from the lovely city of Xi’an, this is your host Drew Smith saying zai jian.