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Lemmy.ml is acting as a proxy instance for Hexbear and should be defederated by any instances that defederate from Hexbear (lemmy.dbzer0.com)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/fediverse@lemmy.world
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The mods of all the major communities there remove comments criticism Hexbear and usually follow it up with a ban. It's absolutely clear what is happening and it shouldn't be allowed to continue.

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[–] 129 points 2 years ago (28 children)

Welcome to federation, where basically every instance is a proxy to all others.

Btw you are also free to block any instance yourself.

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  • [–] 58 points 2 years ago (17 children)

    Unfortunately blocking an instance only blocks posts on that instance, not users from it, which is the main issue people have with those instances.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 years ago (8 children)

    Yeah it's a very common misconception, I find it weird that people are still having it though when 0.19 is widely available.

    Maybe they're just saying it as a way to be dismissive of the issue, this kind of stuff happens often when people report or call to attention malicious instances or malicious users.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago (7 children)

    Honestly I think it's just people that haven't thought very deeply about the nature of communities they're supporting.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago (6 children)

    nor how letting a large, poorly moderated instance run wild can negatively affect discourse on the entire platform. Before Hexbear was defed'd on lemmy.ca, Lemmy was damn near unusable on many threads because of the spam and trolling. Blocking them doesn't stop them from bothering those who haven't and it affects the platform as a whole.

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  • [–] 9 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    Blocking is not a real solution, it is putting a blanket over the problem and pretending it went away. People who suggest you do that are suggesting you enable bad faith actors by ignoring their behavior, as opposed to reporting it and/or making others aware so they can report it. We all need to work better to make the platform and spaces on it better, if no one works at it, nothing gets better.

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  • [–] 11 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    Exactly! Letting problematic instances poison the well leads to a net negative to the platform.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    My unpopular opinion: Federating with everyone by default is not sustainable.

    It's inevitable that the lemmyverse will shatter, and everyone will be better for it.

    Instances will develop their own policies around moderation and behaviour, and federate with other instances with compatible policies.

    Basically, federation only works if everyone is acting in good faith. It wouldn't take much for a single entity acting in bad faith to fuck the entire fediverse presently.

    Presently admits are blacklisting the bad faith instances. That's going to change so admins whitelist compatible instances.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Exactly. Without rules and enforcement, you just get a cesspit. Anarchy just doesn't work.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child)

    Perhaps more accurately, anarchy only works if everyone's objectives are similar or at least compatible.

    Like it would be nice to live in a town where you don't need to lock your doors, but it only takes one asshole to make that untenable.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    I use Connect for Android, and when I block an instance it blocks the users too. Their comments are still here, but sort of spoiler tagged.

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  • [–] 8 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    Yes but surely you can understand that even votes from these poorly moderated instances are distorting the discourse elsewhere in the lemmyverse.

    Just because you can't see it does not mean the problem is solved.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children)

    So we wanna defederate to steer votes in a certain way? Worrying so much about votes is such redditor behavior.

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  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    I would challenge you to think about how votes can influence the culture of a community.

    You're correct in that worrying about how many upvotes you can accumulate is very reddit.

    I'm not really talking about karma accumulation, but rather the way votes can influence visibility of comments. When done methodically, this promotes some ideas over others, and presents an illusion that "everyone else thinks so". This is a very, very powerful way to influence a community.

    We are hard wired to absorb the opinions of those around us. Sure you can disagree with other group members, but even that is an acknowledgement that the alternative perspective you're disagreeing with is a popular one.

    You could absolutely influence people's opinions on lemmy just with a hacked instance that manipulated votes on comments by just a few dozen points.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    You make valid points. Apologies for the Reddit accusation.

    But the one thing that comes to mind is that this kind of Communist, like in lemmy.ml, is not big enough to cause this sway.

    Sure, the instance is massive, but most users don't hold those same beliefs. Most people go to it as the "default" instance. So I really don't think they have the numbers to cause this issue.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago

    Sure. This thread is talking about lemmy.ml, but I'm talking about the current state of the lemmyverse.

    I've posted this elsewhere in this thread but my unpopular opinion is that federation by default is not sustainable.

    Presently admins federate with everyone and blacklist those which are problematic.

    It's inevitable that in the near future someone with a rudimentary understanding of hosting will be able to spin up a dozen instances, each with a few thousand bot accounts, intent on upvoting every "genocide Joe biden" comment.

    The fediverse will shatter. Admins will realise they need policies to guide their own moderation, and acknowledge that they can only federate with specific instances with compatible moderation.

    So instead of blacklisting bad instances, you need to change to whitelisting good ones.

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  • [–] 47 points 2 years ago (9 children)

    Btw you are also free to block any instance yourself.

    Not how the instance blocking feature works. it's a common misconception because people don't read the docs and just assume it does what they think it does. From the News Section on Join-Lemmy:

    Users can now block instances. Similar to community blocks, it means that any posts from communities which are hosted on that instance are hidden. However the block doesn’t affect users from the blocked instance, their posts and comments can still be seen normally in other communities.

    It's not an alternative or replacement to defederation, not even close. I'm really surprised this misconception still persists even after widespread adoption of 0.19.x across the Lemmy network.

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  • [+] -55 points 2 years ago (8 children)

    So you don't care about the instance you want to ban all the users from there. That's quite open minded and tolerant!

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  • [–] 27 points 2 years ago (5 children)

    Honestly, I'm so weary of being open minded and tolerant. I just want to look at linux memes in peace.

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  • [–] 13 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Paradox of tolerance, if you tolerate the intolerant then tolerance quickly goes extinct.

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  • [–] 5 points 2 years ago

    Can we stop this please?

    It was never that revolutionary in the first place - "if you allow assholes to be assholes everything will go to shit" - I'm shocked.

    ... but now, after seeing it as a reply to every second comment on lemmy, it's just spam and doesn't inform discussion in any way.

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  • [+] -20 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    You can block instances for yourself instead of blocking them for everyone.

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  • [–] 10 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Good lord. It's as though you haven't bothered to read any other comments in this thread.

    Blocking instances yourself doesn't solve anything. At all.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    @bouh@lemmy.world Lol look at you seething away, came here just to randomly attack people in a defederation thread.

    I know what triggers these types of responses to defederation, many people believe that the Fediverse was some grand user choice and free speech haven. Which is an incorrect assumption, by a long shot. The fediverse since it's beginning has never been a free speech platform, and also like all other top down servers prioritizes admins, the people who pay the bills and are liable for what happens on their server. So when servers violate these rules and all other options have been exhausted or it is clear that they will continue causing issues persistently, servers are defederated to maintain the peace and safety of their server. One thing to make clear is that all users have the choice of signing up to a different server that does federate, and if they are the victim of one of these compromised/bad-faith servers, they really should consider doing that.

    That’s quite open minded and tolerant! Paradox of Tolerance

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