America is genocidal, sure, but so is every single other society in the history of civilization. America is exceptional because of the technology and the art it contributed to genocide, which is the goal of every civiliztion, remember. Pointing out the difference in scale of US atrocities just prevents us working together for greater justice.

https://lemmy.ml/comment/6343679 https://hexbear.net/comment/4329347

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[–] 1 point 2 years ago (54 children)

Wouldn’t it be fair to actually get the quote right.

I’ve read the work of your theorists here and not one has mentioned a civilization that never made the kinds of disgusting, vile, and despicable mistakes that the US made/makes.

If they have, sorry I missed that, so please enlighten me.

Also — get the quote right?

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  • [–] 33 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (9 children)

    What the fuck are you talking about? The vast majority of modern states don't even have the military capabilities of 'making the mistakes' the U.S. makes (here's a thing, they aren't mistakes), let alone at the scale they make them. Are you gonna claim like Uzbekistan is invading countries half-way across the globe or killed off 97% of it's native population?

    This is besides the fact that most of the time, genocide wasn't economically on the table for most ancient empires, outside of re-settlement, and even then, that was pretty damn rare and thus was mentioned often when it did happen (Babylon, Persia etc.). Often rulers would brag of commiting genocide, but the historical (archeological) and genealogical record doesn't agree with their proclamations. Actual genocide is usually fueled by a want for economic lesbarum or previous colonial economic divides and relationships.

    For example, when ancient Pharaohs went south to 'Subjugate Upper Egypt' they surely fought battles (though again what battles they fought and how large they were are probably exaggerated) but Egyptian control of the area was always limited to a series of small forts that would mostly protect the gold mines and trade routes. It was not about population control. Imperialism? Sure. War Crimes? Sure. Settler-colonial genocide? No.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 years ago (4 children)

    outside of re-settlement, and even then, that was pretty damn rare and thus was mentioned often when it did happen

    I think the only ancient empires which did treated resettlements institutionally and did it routinely was Neo-Assyrian Empire and to way lesser extent, Neo-Babylonian, and they get shit for that in every single text about them, both contemporary and later.

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  • [–] 16 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    It was the Neo-Assyrians, I always mix them up with the Persians.

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  • [–] 16 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Yup, Persians are famous rather from allowing people resettled by NA and NB empires to go back, and iirc they also did resettle some people but the topic is much less researched since it was not done as much and less documented, unlike Assyrians which not only documented everything (and even bragged about it), but their archives were preserved in much better state.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 years ago* (1 child)

    I was going, in my head, "I know the Babylonians and like one other one were really really into resettling, it was super uncommon. Eh fuck it, I'll just put the Persians, the whole ancient Egyptian thing is what really blows that whole settler-colonial thing out of the water." And then it was just a matter of figuring out whether I wanted to mention that the Jewish people who had been resettled by the Babylonians basically made up a story about being previously resettled in Egypt, in an attempt to foster a whole "We have been resettled once before and God brought us back." parallelism with the Babylonian exile (which is a huge part of Jewish myth-making), which ended up being a huge part of the Old Testament, which is partially why people who's only real exposure to history is like, the Bible and the Roman Empire (because of the Bible) (who also were not huge on resettlement, but arguably did some genocide on the Gauls), thinking it was common, when the archaeological record does not support that.

    I should really look more into the Neo-Assyrians, if their records are better kept. Probably a bunch of cool reading or podcasts around it.

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  • [–] 23 points 2 years ago (17 children)

    The US generally does not make mistakes, but commit deliberate crimes.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (16 children)

    What I’m saying is that their deliberate brutalities are mistakes.

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  • [–] 24 points 2 years ago (15 children)

    Aside from that not being what a mistake is, others have noted that in fact most countries have shown no interest in doing what the US has done, as can be seen from many countries existing for hundreds of years without sanctioning chattel slavery.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (14 children)
  • [–] 21 points 2 years ago (13 children)

    I don't particularly remember making the claim that the US was unique in its use of chattel slavery, though your own source admits

    While only 300,000 arrived in the U.S. directly, more came to the present-day U.S. via the intra-American slave trade

    And the numbers here are skewed by the US being counted separately from Britain while Portuguese colonies count for Portugal, to say nothing of the fact that most African diaspora slaves in the 13 colonies/US were born there, over 10 million, far more than what Portugal has in your chart.

    You're doing Holocaust-denial-level dogshit apologetics for your precious little white supremacy capital.

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  • [–] 21 points 2 years ago (15 children)

    You said you're American and are aware that this country was built on genocide. Then you said every major civilization has committed genocide (equivocating, but that's beside the point of my question). What genocides have India and China committed?

    Follow-on question, what genocides were Indian and Chinese civilizations built on? What about Persian civilization?

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (14 children)

    The Naga-Kuki war (1660-1948) The Maratha-Mughal wars (1680-1707)

    China’s history is filled with Dynastic tyranny— each associated with brutal, repressive military conflicts.

    Not sure where you are heading with that.

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  • [–] 19 points 2 years ago (13 children)

    Like I said, collapsing historical continuity past the point of logical coherence

    Also blatantly ignoring the fact Chinese and Indian civilization were not built on the basis of those wars and the fact the states that prosecuted those wars no longer exist

    The US state on the otherhand maintains a legal and poltical continuity all the way back to 1776 and continues to inflict atrocities based on the sociopolitical economic logic of its founding

    Also I love how you obviously just googled random wars from Indian and Chinese history as if that means something, kid log off and go do your homework

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (12 children)

    And you seem perfectly willing to completely disregard those wars, oppression, and tyranny because it doesn’t service the narrative that… what? That no country has ever been as horrible as the United States? Really?

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  • [–] 17 points 2 years ago* (11 children)

    How should one regard a 400 year old war perpetrated by a state that no longer exists for a poltical tradition no one alive follows?

    The only reason you bring up this irrelevant nonsense is because you want to trivialize and downplay the very recent and extremely relevant crimes of the US empire which currently dominates the world

    It's such a childish and disingenuous argument, but hey I don't expect honesty or historical literacy from brain dead fascists

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (10 children)

    Well, perhaps I’ve lost the thread.

    Convince me.

    Please restate your specific claim? It can’t be simply that you are the superior scholar, right? So go ahead — state it?

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  • [–] 12 points 2 years ago (9 children)

    Some could find a few hundred "superior scholars" relative to you at a given middle school.

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  • [+] 1 point 2 years ago (8 children)
  • [–] 12 points 2 years ago* (3 children)

    You misunderstand, when someone keeps flailing long after they make it clear they have nothing useful to say, there's not much of a "debate" worth having with them.

    Ad hom is if I said "you are stupid, therefore your argument is wrong". Like all genuine fallacies, it is an incorrect inference. I am not making this claim, I am simply saying "you are stupid". Your arguments are paper-thin (like your accusation of me doing an ad hom), so those can be addressed as needed, but my goal there was simply to inform you that you're a moron.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children)
  • [–] [S] 18 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    Wouldn’t it be fair to actually get the quote right.

    What tf are you talking about? The only thing I quoted you on I did so with a screenshot. What did I quote wrong according to you? Do you think I went and edited the image file or something? lol If you're talking about the person I replied to, who did make use of quotation marks in their comment, it was clear to everyone that they were not directly quoting you. They were demonstrating a sentiment, one that most here can recognize as common among fascists, a sentiment that you also leaned heavily on, even if you didn't outright say it. You're just picking some little thing to be mad about like "you mis-quoted me!!" because the content of CyborgMarx's comment was spot on and you just aren't capable of countering it.

    I’ve read the work of your theorists here

    You've read the "theorists" "here"? Do you think I'm talking about other commenters when I refer to theory? lol. No, I doubt you've read any theory. Marx and Engels? Lenin? Or maybe more directly relevant to this, Gramsci? Debord? Fanon?

    not one has mentioned a civilization that never made the kinds of disgusting, vile, and despicable mistakes that the US made/makes.

    I'll defer to the other people who commented and answered this, making clear to everyone that you don't know wtf you're even talking about.

    If they have, sorry I missed that, so please enlighten me.

    Well, they did, so I hope you consider yourself enlightened now.

    Also — get the quote right?

    What, you want I should get a higher resolution screenshot next time? lol

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Loved that exhaustive list of just societies. Nice. You win.

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  • [–] [S] 17 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    What, you didn't like the fact that others already schooled you on that topic, and you wanted me to hold your hand through that too? No, I think it's actually that you're embarrassed that you have exactly zilch to say of any consequence in response to everything else in my comment. Whatever the case, I'm happy to leave it as-is, since anyone who can read beyond a grade-2 level will recognize your cringe for what it is. You can't even fall back on that bullshit you made up about being misquoted, since even that was an obvious lie. 🙄

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago

    Seriously — this thread went sideways. It started when someone decided to redefine the word murderer as America. As ridiculous a claim as possible, unless of course you have zero understanding of what America is.

    I have conceded from the emergence of the thread that America has committed genocide.

    Sadly, I’ll also bring up that your use of contemporary technology and media owes so much to American ingenuity and innovation that you might reconsider your attachment to it. Just sayin’.

    I also remember you clutching after your pearls when I mentioned that other states have engaged in brutal, despicable acts of genicidal oppression. Oh — but you seem to want to make the US exceptional here when sadly it isn’t.

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  • [–] 14 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    I’ve read the work of your theorists

    Oh really? Which ones?

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Sadly here I was in fact mocking the other commenters in the thread who failed to establish that the definition of murderer is America.

    I did not realize that the conversation had a chance of venue.

    I’ve since piece together that the initial comment that I made was on a meme equating the definition of murderer is America.

    My response was to simply call to mind the notion that America is so complicated that Americans themselves cannot even agree on a definition.

    My reading on the topic has been focused on Chomsky, Zinn, and Klein.

    And what’s weird, is that I’m pretty sure everyone here knows and respects those thinkers. I’m pretty sure that despite that we are strangers on the internet — some who want to suggest that the apropos definition of Murderer is America and one who who believes America to be a more complicated place — we have more in common than not.

    He hate injustice, oppression, murder. We revile what’s happening in the Middle East right now. We despise fascism and want to see Trump jailed at the very least.

    Anyway— the original meme has been downvoted steadily. I’ve been called a fascist despite that I personally faced down federal thugs during the George Floyd protests and took a club to the throat.

    And I believe there are also activists here who have suffers for their principles.

    What gets me is this tendency to destroy someone you disagree with rather than educate?

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