▲ 1 ▼ During Leverkusens match last saturday their fans showed a banner with the title "There's many music styles - but only two genders" (www.express.de) submitted 2 years ago by Kayderp1@alien.top [B] to c/main@soccer.forum 362 comments fedilink hide all child comments
[–] yaffle53@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (4 children) There's actually 3 genders in German grammar. permalink fedilink source hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Dykidnnid@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Lmfao permalink fedilink source parent [–] ViciousNakedMoleRat@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (4 children) One issue here is that "Geschlechter" was translated as "genders" in the headline, while the word can also be translated as "sexes", which does make a big difference. I'm not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Romanista3@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Football has always had a political side. Those fans showed their political colors I guess permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (6 children) I have a lot of German friends, and it seems really regional but a lot of the country is extremely transphobic. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] czerwona_latarnia@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) How is this specifically transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don't trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] LowPlatform@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago These right-wing football fans aren't waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They're doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It's a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ovenimz@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’. Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort. permalink fedilink source parent [–] joeDUBstep@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Most of the world is transphobic permalink fedilink source parent [–] JAYZ303@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Realistically, is there a country that isn't? Maybe Thailand. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JogaBarrito@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Meh. Nowadays if you don't want a mtf athlete competing with biological women or children taking life altering hormones at 12 some coward bully will want to justify bashing your head in because they call you "transphobe". We gotta stop with the word and actually talk about the issues without threats every 5 seconds. Not that Reddit is the place for that since it's circlejerk-land where anyone who disagrees is a nazi, but you get the point. permalink fedilink source parent [–] FrogsOnALog@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Which is insane because one of the first book burning was targeted towards a sex institute. First they came for the trans kids… permalink fedilink source parent [–] UmCeterumCenseo@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Where's the issue? From the context it's very clear they meant gender and not sex permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ipsider@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) There is no issue. It's very clear that they meant gender and not sex. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ThePaSch@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I think they were asking because /u/ViciousNakedMoleRat literally said "one issue here is that [...]". You are right. There is no issue. So I don't quite know why the existence of the other translation needed any pointing out since I doubt these people meant to make and display a purely medical banner. permalink fedilink source parent [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (4 children) But even hardcore gender social constructivists don't argue for more than 2 sexes? Or have I misread the literature? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ViciousNakedMoleRat@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago There are quite a few people who argue for sex as a spectrum. Which doesn't make biological sense and is neither helpful for intersex people nor for transgender people. permalink fedilink source parent [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children) The person you're replying to is wrong, translating the word as gender makes the most sense here. That said, sex isn't strictly binary ~1.5% of people are intersex, which means when they're born, they don't fit the typical definition of male or female. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) 1.5% of people are not intersex. It's closer to about 0.02% permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) I got my numbers from Amnesty International. Myth 2: Being intersex is very rare According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago It's a common figure that you will often see but it's wrong. It's based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%. permalink fedilink source parent [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) that means 98.5% of all people have either xx or xy karyotypes, right? The discussion always hinges upon disagreements what to do with those 98.5%. Not about what are those 1.5%. Thats what I mean. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication. I'm just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens. Why do people do that? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Why does it make the most sense? The word Geschlecht can mean both sex and gender. permalink fedilink source parent [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) There are definitely more than 2 sexes. There are XX, XY, XXY, and XYY. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Those are literally abberations and detract from the actual discussions. Nobody cares about those edge cases, discussions only go there if there is a "but actually..." thing going on like you just did permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) No one cares, except for all the people who do. Maybe the problem is that people don't care and make uninformed statements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ludoban@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual. The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers. permalink fedilink source parent [–] zaviex@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago FYI, most medical literature will refer to intersex genotypes as male or female still with the presence of the Y chromosome generally defining the sex. For instance if you look up XXY on Wikipedia or similar, it will usually say “XXY male”. On crossover events, it’s still characterized as male and female but usually as “XX male” and “XY female” permalink fedilink source parent [–] circa285@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I don't know what a "gender social constructivist" is, but I do know that from a medical standpoint there are more than two biological sexes. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Unless you consider intersex the third sex. I'm not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans. The same relevance it has for everyone saying there are only two genders: It's part of their culture war. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Insanel0l@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago For anyone wondering, it's Er/Sie/Es (He/She/it) permalink fedilink source parent [–] cliff_smiff@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Germany badly needs some English speakers to create a "latinx" for them permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] muhhi@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) lil bro germany is 2 latinx updates infront of the anglos we have it for every word and we use special characters for it For englishmen we would use Engländer*in or Engländer_innen permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] cliff_smiff@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago OK I'm curious, mind giving me a quick explanation? There is a gender neutral for every word? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ViciousNakedMoleRat@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (4 children) One issue here is that "Geschlechter" was translated as "genders" in the headline, while the word can also be translated as "sexes", which does make a big difference. I'm not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] Romanista3@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Football has always had a political side. Those fans showed their political colors I guess permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (6 children) I have a lot of German friends, and it seems really regional but a lot of the country is extremely transphobic. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] czerwona_latarnia@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) How is this specifically transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don't trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] LowPlatform@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago These right-wing football fans aren't waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They're doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It's a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ovenimz@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’. Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort. permalink fedilink source parent [–] joeDUBstep@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Most of the world is transphobic permalink fedilink source parent [–] JAYZ303@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Realistically, is there a country that isn't? Maybe Thailand. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JogaBarrito@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Meh. Nowadays if you don't want a mtf athlete competing with biological women or children taking life altering hormones at 12 some coward bully will want to justify bashing your head in because they call you "transphobe". We gotta stop with the word and actually talk about the issues without threats every 5 seconds. Not that Reddit is the place for that since it's circlejerk-land where anyone who disagrees is a nazi, but you get the point. permalink fedilink source parent [–] FrogsOnALog@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Which is insane because one of the first book burning was targeted towards a sex institute. First they came for the trans kids… permalink fedilink source parent [–] UmCeterumCenseo@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Where's the issue? From the context it's very clear they meant gender and not sex permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ipsider@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) There is no issue. It's very clear that they meant gender and not sex. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ThePaSch@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I think they were asking because /u/ViciousNakedMoleRat literally said "one issue here is that [...]". You are right. There is no issue. So I don't quite know why the existence of the other translation needed any pointing out since I doubt these people meant to make and display a purely medical banner. permalink fedilink source parent [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (4 children) But even hardcore gender social constructivists don't argue for more than 2 sexes? Or have I misread the literature? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ViciousNakedMoleRat@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago There are quite a few people who argue for sex as a spectrum. Which doesn't make biological sense and is neither helpful for intersex people nor for transgender people. permalink fedilink source parent [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children) The person you're replying to is wrong, translating the word as gender makes the most sense here. That said, sex isn't strictly binary ~1.5% of people are intersex, which means when they're born, they don't fit the typical definition of male or female. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) 1.5% of people are not intersex. It's closer to about 0.02% permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) I got my numbers from Amnesty International. Myth 2: Being intersex is very rare According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago It's a common figure that you will often see but it's wrong. It's based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%. permalink fedilink source parent [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) that means 98.5% of all people have either xx or xy karyotypes, right? The discussion always hinges upon disagreements what to do with those 98.5%. Not about what are those 1.5%. Thats what I mean. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication. I'm just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens. Why do people do that? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Why does it make the most sense? The word Geschlecht can mean both sex and gender. permalink fedilink source parent [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) There are definitely more than 2 sexes. There are XX, XY, XXY, and XYY. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Those are literally abberations and detract from the actual discussions. Nobody cares about those edge cases, discussions only go there if there is a "but actually..." thing going on like you just did permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) No one cares, except for all the people who do. Maybe the problem is that people don't care and make uninformed statements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ludoban@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual. The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers. permalink fedilink source parent [–] zaviex@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago FYI, most medical literature will refer to intersex genotypes as male or female still with the presence of the Y chromosome generally defining the sex. For instance if you look up XXY on Wikipedia or similar, it will usually say “XXY male”. On crossover events, it’s still characterized as male and female but usually as “XX male” and “XY female” permalink fedilink source parent [–] circa285@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I don't know what a "gender social constructivist" is, but I do know that from a medical standpoint there are more than two biological sexes. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Unless you consider intersex the third sex. I'm not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans. The same relevance it has for everyone saying there are only two genders: It's part of their culture war. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Romanista3@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Football has always had a political side. Those fans showed their political colors I guess permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (6 children) I have a lot of German friends, and it seems really regional but a lot of the country is extremely transphobic. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] czerwona_latarnia@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) How is this specifically transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don't trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] LowPlatform@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago These right-wing football fans aren't waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They're doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It's a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ovenimz@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’. Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort. permalink fedilink source parent [–] joeDUBstep@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Most of the world is transphobic permalink fedilink source parent [–] JAYZ303@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Realistically, is there a country that isn't? Maybe Thailand. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JogaBarrito@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Meh. Nowadays if you don't want a mtf athlete competing with biological women or children taking life altering hormones at 12 some coward bully will want to justify bashing your head in because they call you "transphobe". We gotta stop with the word and actually talk about the issues without threats every 5 seconds. Not that Reddit is the place for that since it's circlejerk-land where anyone who disagrees is a nazi, but you get the point. permalink fedilink source parent [–] FrogsOnALog@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Which is insane because one of the first book burning was targeted towards a sex institute. First they came for the trans kids… permalink fedilink source parent
[–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (6 children) I have a lot of German friends, and it seems really regional but a lot of the country is extremely transphobic. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 12 child comments replies: [–] czerwona_latarnia@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) How is this specifically transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don't trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] LowPlatform@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago These right-wing football fans aren't waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They're doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It's a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter. permalink fedilink source parent [–] ovenimz@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’. Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort. permalink fedilink source parent [–] joeDUBstep@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Most of the world is transphobic permalink fedilink source parent [–] JAYZ303@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Realistically, is there a country that isn't? Maybe Thailand. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject. permalink fedilink source parent [–] JogaBarrito@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Meh. Nowadays if you don't want a mtf athlete competing with biological women or children taking life altering hormones at 12 some coward bully will want to justify bashing your head in because they call you "transphobe". We gotta stop with the word and actually talk about the issues without threats every 5 seconds. Not that Reddit is the place for that since it's circlejerk-land where anyone who disagrees is a nazi, but you get the point. permalink fedilink source parent [–] FrogsOnALog@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Which is insane because one of the first book burning was targeted towards a sex institute. First they came for the trans kids… permalink fedilink source parent
[–] czerwona_latarnia@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) How is this specifically transphobic? I understand that this is against non-binary people, but don't trans people want to change from one sex to the other, staying in the original binary selection? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] LowPlatform@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago These right-wing football fans aren't waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They're doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It's a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] LowPlatform@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago These right-wing football fans aren't waving this banner to start a gentle discussion about the differences between sex and gender. They're doing it to be provocative and whip up hate against all trans people (including trans men, women and non binary people). It's a shorthand for basically saying trans people are making it all up, designed to laugh at and try and humiliate trans people, which makes it transphobic / hateful in its sentiment. Intentions matter. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ovenimz@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Can confirm that it’s mostly regional. Having spent 15 years in northern Germany, all I ever heard on the topic was something like ‘just let people do what they want’. Although, and this might be relevant, none of the people I’ve been in contact with are religious or anything of the sort. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] joeDUBstep@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Most of the world is transphobic permalink fedilink source parent
[–] JAYZ303@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Realistically, is there a country that isn't? Maybe Thailand. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] TheRedditK9@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I mean here in Sweden I don’t see it too much outside of rural areas. It definitely exists but the status quo is generally fine with it as far as I’ve noticed first hand. I’m not trans though so I’m probably not a reliable authority on the subject. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] JogaBarrito@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Meh. Nowadays if you don't want a mtf athlete competing with biological women or children taking life altering hormones at 12 some coward bully will want to justify bashing your head in because they call you "transphobe". We gotta stop with the word and actually talk about the issues without threats every 5 seconds. Not that Reddit is the place for that since it's circlejerk-land where anyone who disagrees is a nazi, but you get the point. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] FrogsOnALog@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Which is insane because one of the first book burning was targeted towards a sex institute. First they came for the trans kids… permalink fedilink source parent
[–] UmCeterumCenseo@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Where's the issue? From the context it's very clear they meant gender and not sex permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ipsider@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) There is no issue. It's very clear that they meant gender and not sex. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ThePaSch@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I think they were asking because /u/ViciousNakedMoleRat literally said "one issue here is that [...]". You are right. There is no issue. So I don't quite know why the existence of the other translation needed any pointing out since I doubt these people meant to make and display a purely medical banner. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Ipsider@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) There is no issue. It's very clear that they meant gender and not sex. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] ThePaSch@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I think they were asking because /u/ViciousNakedMoleRat literally said "one issue here is that [...]". You are right. There is no issue. So I don't quite know why the existence of the other translation needed any pointing out since I doubt these people meant to make and display a purely medical banner. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ThePaSch@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I think they were asking because /u/ViciousNakedMoleRat literally said "one issue here is that [...]". You are right. There is no issue. So I don't quite know why the existence of the other translation needed any pointing out since I doubt these people meant to make and display a purely medical banner. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (4 children) But even hardcore gender social constructivists don't argue for more than 2 sexes? Or have I misread the literature? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 8 child comments replies: [–] ViciousNakedMoleRat@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago There are quite a few people who argue for sex as a spectrum. Which doesn't make biological sense and is neither helpful for intersex people nor for transgender people. permalink fedilink source parent [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children) The person you're replying to is wrong, translating the word as gender makes the most sense here. That said, sex isn't strictly binary ~1.5% of people are intersex, which means when they're born, they don't fit the typical definition of male or female. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) 1.5% of people are not intersex. It's closer to about 0.02% permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) I got my numbers from Amnesty International. Myth 2: Being intersex is very rare According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago It's a common figure that you will often see but it's wrong. It's based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%. permalink fedilink source parent [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) that means 98.5% of all people have either xx or xy karyotypes, right? The discussion always hinges upon disagreements what to do with those 98.5%. Not about what are those 1.5%. Thats what I mean. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication. I'm just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens. Why do people do that? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Why does it make the most sense? The word Geschlecht can mean both sex and gender. permalink fedilink source parent [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) There are definitely more than 2 sexes. There are XX, XY, XXY, and XYY. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Those are literally abberations and detract from the actual discussions. Nobody cares about those edge cases, discussions only go there if there is a "but actually..." thing going on like you just did permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) No one cares, except for all the people who do. Maybe the problem is that people don't care and make uninformed statements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ludoban@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual. The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers. permalink fedilink source parent [–] zaviex@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago FYI, most medical literature will refer to intersex genotypes as male or female still with the presence of the Y chromosome generally defining the sex. For instance if you look up XXY on Wikipedia or similar, it will usually say “XXY male”. On crossover events, it’s still characterized as male and female but usually as “XX male” and “XY female” permalink fedilink source parent [–] circa285@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I don't know what a "gender social constructivist" is, but I do know that from a medical standpoint there are more than two biological sexes. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] ViciousNakedMoleRat@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago There are quite a few people who argue for sex as a spectrum. Which doesn't make biological sense and is neither helpful for intersex people nor for transgender people. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (3 children) The person you're replying to is wrong, translating the word as gender makes the most sense here. That said, sex isn't strictly binary ~1.5% of people are intersex, which means when they're born, they don't fit the typical definition of male or female. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 6 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) 1.5% of people are not intersex. It's closer to about 0.02% permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) I got my numbers from Amnesty International. Myth 2: Being intersex is very rare According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago It's a common figure that you will often see but it's wrong. It's based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%. permalink fedilink source parent [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) that means 98.5% of all people have either xx or xy karyotypes, right? The discussion always hinges upon disagreements what to do with those 98.5%. Not about what are those 1.5%. Thats what I mean. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication. I'm just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens. Why do people do that? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer. permalink fedilink source parent [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Why does it make the most sense? The word Geschlecht can mean both sex and gender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) 1.5% of people are not intersex. It's closer to about 0.02% permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) I got my numbers from Amnesty International. Myth 2: Being intersex is very rare According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago It's a common figure that you will often see but it's wrong. It's based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) I got my numbers from Amnesty International. Myth 2: Being intersex is very rare According to experts, around 1.7% of the population is born with intersex traits – comparable to the number of people born with red hair. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago It's a common figure that you will often see but it's wrong. It's based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] FireZeLazer@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago It's a common figure that you will often see but it's wrong. It's based on an academic paper that included a large range of non-intersex conditions that affect phenotype. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12476264/ Actual chromosomal difference (which is what intersex refers to) is about 0.02%. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) that means 98.5% of all people have either xx or xy karyotypes, right? The discussion always hinges upon disagreements what to do with those 98.5%. Not about what are those 1.5%. Thats what I mean. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication. I'm just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens. Why do people do that? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) In my experience, the conservative side of it tends to be reductive like that, trans advocacy has been getting better at including intersex advocacy as well because the two groups have overlapping needs. I mostly mentioned it because it was interesting and relevent though. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication. I'm just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens. Why do people do that? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Again, this is all well and good, it just fails to grasp the discourse and tries to establish a topic the other side has no interest in. Its literally miscomunication. I'm just sick of all the people talking past each other hoping that if they do it long enough the other side will come back to the debate on their turf which never happens. Why do people do that? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] prettysureitsmaddie@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Alright, lay it out for me. What am I debating against then? I will try to give a nice thorough answer. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Why does it make the most sense? The word Geschlecht can mean both sex and gender. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (2 children) There are definitely more than 2 sexes. There are XX, XY, XXY, and XYY. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 4 child comments replies: [–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Those are literally abberations and detract from the actual discussions. Nobody cares about those edge cases, discussions only go there if there is a "but actually..." thing going on like you just did permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) No one cares, except for all the people who do. Maybe the problem is that people don't care and make uninformed statements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ludoban@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual. The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers. permalink fedilink source parent [–] zaviex@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago FYI, most medical literature will refer to intersex genotypes as male or female still with the presence of the Y chromosome generally defining the sex. For instance if you look up XXY on Wikipedia or similar, it will usually say “XXY male”. On crossover events, it’s still characterized as male and female but usually as “XX male” and “XY female” permalink fedilink source parent
[–] axehomeless@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Those are literally abberations and detract from the actual discussions. Nobody cares about those edge cases, discussions only go there if there is a "but actually..." thing going on like you just did permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) No one cares, except for all the people who do. Maybe the problem is that people don't care and make uninformed statements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ludoban@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual. The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) No one cares, except for all the people who do. Maybe the problem is that people don't care and make uninformed statements? permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] Ludoban@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual. The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Ludoban@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) But its literally the same as if someone asks „how many fingers are on a human hand?“, the answer being 5 and you going „actually the answer is 0-10“ because some people with deformations got born with more or less fingers than usual. The problem isnt uninformed people, the thing is most people are more than aware about these things but are just able to see whats the point of the discussion and dont want to derail it. permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] DontWorryImSad@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago The difference there is that no one discriminates or denies the existence of people with more or less than 10 fingers. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] zaviex@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago FYI, most medical literature will refer to intersex genotypes as male or female still with the presence of the Y chromosome generally defining the sex. For instance if you look up XXY on Wikipedia or similar, it will usually say “XXY male”. On crossover events, it’s still characterized as male and female but usually as “XX male” and “XY female” permalink fedilink source parent
[–] circa285@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago I don't know what a "gender social constructivist" is, but I do know that from a medical standpoint there are more than two biological sexes. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Prosthemadera@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago Unless you consider intersex the third sex. I'm not sure though what relevance the existence of two biological sexes has for those fans. The same relevance it has for everyone saying there are only two genders: It's part of their culture war. permalink fedilink source parent
[–] Insanel0l@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago For anyone wondering, it's Er/Sie/Es (He/She/it) permalink fedilink source parent
[–] cliff_smiff@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) Germany badly needs some English speakers to create a "latinx" for them permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] muhhi@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) lil bro germany is 2 latinx updates infront of the anglos we have it for every word and we use special characters for it For englishmen we would use Engländer*in or Engländer_innen permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] cliff_smiff@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago OK I'm curious, mind giving me a quick explanation? There is a gender neutral for every word? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] muhhi@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago (1 child) lil bro germany is 2 latinx updates infront of the anglos we have it for every word and we use special characters for it For englishmen we would use Engländer*in or Engländer_innen permalink fedilink source parent hideshow 2 child comments replies: [–] cliff_smiff@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago OK I'm curious, mind giving me a quick explanation? There is a gender neutral for every word? permalink fedilink source parent
[–] cliff_smiff@alien.top [B] 1 point 2 years ago OK I'm curious, mind giving me a quick explanation? There is a gender neutral for every word? permalink fedilink source parent