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The state of the discourse. (lemmy.world)
submitted 2 years ago by to c/aboringdystopia@lemmy.world
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[–] 45 points 2 years ago (67 children)

What if they were shooting your kids while hiding behind their own? Would you let them keep doing it while insisting that reprisals are off limits?

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  • [–] 52 points 2 years ago (24 children)

    Yeah, this is the problem I'm having with people picking sides. It's a giant crap-pile of the worst of humanity. People act like there's a good side. Nah, everything's a mess of generational hatred and I hate it all.

    There needs to be a cease-fire. Hamas needs to release all hostages and then be permanently removed from power in Gaza, and Israel needs to help the Palestinians rebuild what has been destroyed, burry their dead with dignity and respect, and heavily compensate the families of those who have died.

    The whole thing is out of control

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (15 children)

    Interesting that you mentioned the removal of Hamas from power but not the current Isreali government.

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago*

    The government of Israel is at least somewhat democratic. That makes removing it a bit more thorny than removing an organization like Hamas, because one either has to effectively just force an election there, which carries the risk that the same people (or people with the same ideology, if you forbid the specific people currently in power) might just win it and keep things the same, or replace the entire system with something that isn't democratic, which is generally viewed as a bad thing in itself. It's also move salvageable though for the same reason: there's little chance that someone wanting peace and resolution will somehow take over Hamas, it would be antithetical to what their organization even is, but the policies of a government like Isreal's at least have the potential to dramatically shift if people wanting those things take hold of it.

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  • [–] 2 points 2 years ago (3 children)

    Sure that can change, too. I don't live there, so it didn't come to mind. My desires mean nothing to anyone by me- but I want the violence to stop.

    I can't imagine that the Israeli people so close to the border are just totally fine with what happened to the civilians and likely would want their government overhauled- but again, I don't live there. I only know what the media as told me, and I acknowledge that all that could even be a lie.

    It's messy

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  • [–] 0 points 2 years ago (2 children)

    Indeed it is messy. But "removing" Hamas from power is about as easy as "removing" Bibi and his cabal from power. They feed off each other, and blame each other just enough to sway their populace into letting them stay in power.

    The problem isn't as easily fixed as "just take Hamas... and put it over there".

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  • [–] 6 points 2 years ago

    There's an infinite spectrum between "not shooting children" and "letting the other guy shoot yours"

    Also, this "oh we're so much better and civilized" act really falls short when it has to be explained to you why shooting children is still bad even when you do it.

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  • [–] 4 points 2 years ago (6 children)

    False dilemma. There are ways to react that don't involve shooting children.

    Even if there weren't, I wouldn't say "yeah shoot some children."

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  • [–] 3 points 2 years ago (1 child)

    Wouldn't proportionality be a thing here? Reprisals would be acceptable if they did not result in a disproportionate loss of innocent civilians. Unfortunately it seems like Palestinian children's lives are much cheaper than Israeli lives. I hate saying it because I think all children deserve protection regardless of the actions of the people in power, be it hamas or idf.

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  • [–] 1 point 2 years ago

    Also the comparision isnt Palestinian children vs Israeli children. It is Palestinian children vs. grown armed men and women aka Soldiers.

    Israel could have worked with insurgencies to target Hamas specifically, without having to bomb everything to rubble. That would have risked more soldiers lives though.

    So they are weighting their soldiers lifes at a rate of about 200 Palestinains of which 80 are children.

    For comparision. In WW2 about 4 Ally soldiers died for one civillian death in the Axis and about 6 Ally civillians, mostly Chinese, Polish, Ukranian and Russian, died for every Axis soldier. So the war of total annhilation, with death squads eradicating entire villages and concentration camps for mass murder still had a much lower rate of civillian to military deaths.

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